If cut content is release in an expansion would you be angry?

[Shadowski]

Originally Posted by Mel

Nope. Its a lot of content, but not very big in its scope. Its not a whole new area, or race.

From what I've seen and read about the 2 capital cities they finished, adding the other 4 just as fleshed out as Altdorf and the Inevitable City are would constitute one of the largest expansions for an MMO ever. I mean I haven't played it, but we'd be talking:

4 Large interactive zones
400+ quests
New armor/weapons/items specific to each city
12+ dungeons

I consider a living capital city much larger in scope than a new race. Seriously each city pairing would be large enough to constitute a legit expansion on their own. As far as this poll and the whole debate it's silly. We weren't promised these cities or classes, you may have expected them, but the entire dev team made it very clear that until WAR was out of beta everything you read, saw and heard about the game was set in mud. I take that to mean that every feature, item, class, city, zone, and dungeon they were working on and showed us, could be pulled from the feature list at launch. You may not like that fact, but that's the way it is, and unless someone can pull up a link to a post from a Mythic employee with the word's "We promise you will be able to play a Choppa at launch" or "We promise to have 24 unique classes at launch" then the players really have no reason to feel like they've been cheated.

Sure it was all disappointing news, but we knew the game wasn't done yet, and Mark had even mentioned that he would cut classes and/or content if necessary. Now as far as paying for this "cut content", I understand why they'd hope to be able to do it for free. If it really ties up more resources than they can spare for free, then they are justified in charging for it. If not, then it should be free.

Given Mythic's track record though, I figure this content will be added for free. In DAoC they gave major content additions for free(not to mention the paid expansions were eventually given away for free as well after they were a couple years old). Darkness falls, realm abilities, housing, the rvr revamp, the dragon campaigns...all came from free expansions/patches.

[Kesarh]

Mythic already assured us this is not gonna happen......

[Mel]

Originally Posted by Shadowski

From what I've seen and read about the 2 capital cities they finished, adding the other 4 just as fleshed out as Altdorf and the Inevitable City are would constitute one of the largest expansions for an MMO ever. I mean I haven't played it, but we'd be talking:

4 Large interactive zones
400+ quests
New armor/weapons/items specific to each city
12+ dungeons

I consider a living capital city much larger in scope than a new race. Seriously each city pairing would be large enough to constitute a legit expansion on their own. As far as this poll and the whole debate it's silly. We weren't promised these cities or classes, you may have expected them, but the entire dev team made it very clear that until WAR was out of beta everything you read, saw and heard about the game was set in mud. I take that to mean that every feature, item, class, city, zone, and dungeon they were working on and showed us, could be pulled from the feature list at launch. You may not like that fact, but that's the way it is, and unless someone can pull up a link to a post from a Mythic employee with the word's "We promise you will be able to play a Choppa at launch" or "We promise to have 24 unique classes at launch" then the players really have no reason to feel like they've been cheated.

Sure it was all disappointing news, but we knew the game wasn't done yet, and Mark had even mentioned that he would cut classes and/or content if necessary. Now as far as paying for this "cut content", I understand why they'd hope to be able to do it for free. If it really ties up more resources than they can spare for free, then they are justified in charging for it. If not, then it should be free.

Given Mythic's track record though, I figure this content will be added for free. In DAoC they gave major content additions for free(not to mention the paid expansions were eventually given away for free as well after they were a couple years old). Darkness falls, realm abilities, housing, the rvr revamp, the dragon campaigns...all came from free expansions/patches.

Didnt EQ release an entire continent as an expansion? Even Wow's expansion had several new zones, about 20(more if you include the heroic versions) new dungeons, huge amounts of new gear, and huge amounts of quests. So again, I agree that they are a large amount of content, but that they are so limited in their scope, its just cities, not new zones, that they would not warrant an expansion.

Other than that, I agree wholeheartedly with your post.

[Drakk]

Apart from completely disagreeing with the point of your post, I wholeheartedly agree?

[Mbj]

Folks,

I would be very, very angry, how's that?

Now as to my reasoning. First, during the development process of most creative ventures, things get cut and changed. That happens in games, books, films, television, etc. Secondly, for examples, things such as scenes that are cut from a movie are then are put into a "Director's Cut" or "Special Edition" etc. I don't think that it is wrong for a filmmaker to cut things out of his/her own film in order to make the film great and then offer them on a special DVD. Now, I wish they would put them on the same DVD as the original film is on but I have no real problem with the practice. While some people may disagree, it is a widespread practice and one that I don't have any problem with morally, ethically, etc. Making a game, especially an MMO, is no different in that respect. We cut out things, change things, etc. during a development process and when the development process is three years long, well, even more can get cut and changed. However:

We have been talking about these classes and the cities for quite a while. And while I absolutely believe that we have the right, if we so choose, from every ethical, moral and legal perspective to cut them out totally or put them in the game in a paid expansion, that doesn't mean that we should do that. We've always tried to hold ourselves to a higher standard. No, we're not perfect, yes we make mistakes and yes, yes, yes we are also a business but just because you can do something doesn't always mean you should do something. In this case, what we want to do and what we will try our best to do is to make sure that if/when we bring back those classes and these cities (sorry for the if, don't read more into it, just being careful) that players will not have to buy them from us as part of a paid expansion but rather just part of the content updates that we did so well for DAoC.

And that's why I would be very angry because we tried to do something and for some reason(s) we couldn't make it happen. And that always pisses me off...

Mark

[TaH2k8]

Originally Posted by Mbj

Folks,

I would be very, very angry, how's that?

Now as to my reasoning. First, during the development process of most creative ventures, things get cut and changed. That happens in games, books, films, television, etc. Secondly, for examples, things such as scenes that are cut from a movie are then are put into a "Director's Cut" or "Special Edition" etc. I don't think that it is wrong for a filmmaker to cut things out of his/her own film in order to make the film great and then offer them on a special DVD. Now, I wish they would put them on the same DVD as the original film is on but I have no real problem with the practice. While some people may disagree, it is a widespread practice and one that I don't have any problem with morally, ethically, etc. Making a game, especially an MMO, is no different in that respect. We cut out things, change things, etc. during a development process and when the development process is three years long, well, even more can get cut and changed. However:

We have been talking about these classes and the cities for quite a while. And while I absolutely believe that we have the right, if we so choose, from every ethical, moral and legal perspective to cut them out totally or put them in the game in a paid expansion, that doesn't mean that we should do that. We've always tried to hold ourselves to a higher standard. No, we're not perfect, yes we make mistakes and yes, yes, yes we are also a business but just because you can do something doesn't always mean you should do something. In this case, what we want to do and what we will try our best to do is to make sure that if/when we bring back those classes and these cities (sorry for the if, don't read more into it, just being careful) that players will not have to buy them from us as part of a paid expansion but rather just part of the content updates that we did so well for DAoC.

And that's why I would be very angry because we tried to do something and for some reason(s) we couldn't make it happen. And that always pisses me off...

Mark

Doesn't the fact that you advertise cut content as being a part of the game for years in advance change this though? I understand that you clearly state that Mythic has every intention to release the cut content (if it's released) for free, however, it just seems like a whole different story to me than the movie production thing where no one ever knows what they missed unless they buy the "director's cut".

Edit: Although, "ethically", I see where you're coming from--nobody HAS to buy the game, or expansion packs. But still.... I'm glad to see that Mythic has integrity regarding the matter.

[Drakk]

Originally Posted by Mbj

Folks,

I would be very, very angry,


Mark

Think i won the thread.

[Seref]

Hell yeah I'd be upset. I'm already paying 90 bucks for the CE as is (and considering dropping to the normal edition). To quote yahtzee:

"But the day I fork out 70 bucks for an expansion pack is the day I swallow razor wire, pull the end out of my a**, and floss myself to death."

This goes double for our current predicament, as the content in question was supposed to be in the game already, anyway.

Not only this, but if it is placed in an expansion pack, this would mean up to a year or more before we see (and probably ever hear of) any of this content again.

[Drokk]

Mark, that 'if' is going to give me nightmares. Thanks for that.

Hrm, hope he didn't take that seriously.

[Mbj]

Originally Posted by Drokk

Mark, that 'if' is going to give me nightmares. Thanks for that.

You're welcome! Seriously though, nothing has changed from when we made the initial announcement. It's the way I've posted and couched things for years. I always try to us "if" when it comes to this type of stuff because when I don't, it's guaranteed that down the road I/we be taken to task for it. It's why I almost never guarantee or promise anything unless I'm 100% sure that we can pull it off. Comes from both being an ex-lawyer and from decades of doing this stuff. All is going very, very well with the game's progress towards launch and for afterward. And yes, part of those discussions revolve around the cut classes and cities.

Mark

[Shadowski]

"Doesn't the fact that you advertise cut content as being a part of the game for years in advance change this though? I understand that you clearly state that Mythic has every intention to release the cut content (if it's released) for free, however, it just seems like a whole different story to me than the movie production thing where no one ever knows what they missed unless they buy the "director's cut"."

You apparently have never seen a preview for a movie that used a scene that was cut from the final version. Not only that but they do it without giving you a warning right before saying, "hey this movie isn't quite finished yet, so some of these scenes might get cut." You see a preview and think hey that looks hilarious! So then you go see the movie, and the two funniest scenes from the previews are no where to be found. I guess that means it is a "whole different story" but only because the movie company isn't up front about it, they don't give you a warning like "everything is set in mud".

[Dashel]

I think the classes are the big thing Mark. You certainly made the right call with the cities, the classes obviously sting more. People get attached even before they are created.

Still, this too shall pass. If you can find a way to get them in at some point, that would be a big plus. This game needs more than one Orc class in a big big way.

[Brad the terrible]

Originally Posted by Mel

Youre saying why you think it could happen, Im showing why I think it couldnt. Im not sure what youre getting at.

What I'm getting at is your saying that they won't release this content in an expansion. Thats fine, I even agree with you, I don't think they will release the content in an expansion.

But when you say that they will absolutely release it for free, thats where I can't agree with you. You don't know for a fact that they will do this. You may think they will but you can't confirm this until it happens or doesn't happen.

What I'm saying is there are no absolutes.

[Mel]

Originally Posted by TaH2k8

Doesn't the fact that you advertise cut content as being a part of the game for years in advance change this though? I understand that you clearly state that Mythic has every intention to release the cut content (if it's released) for free, however, it just seems like a whole different story to me than the movie production thing where no one ever knows what they missed unless they buy the "director's cut".

Edit: Although, "ethically", I see where you're coming from--nobody HAS to buy the game, or expansion packs. But still.... I'm glad to see that Mythic has integrity regarding the matter.

How does it change it? Is a movie obligated to keep all of the scenes from the trailer in the movie?

Originally Posted by Brad the terrible

What I'm getting at is your saying that they won't release this content in an expansion. Thats fine, I even agree with you, I don't think they will release the content in an expansion.

But when you say that they will absolutely release it for free, thats where I can't agree with you. You don't know for a fact that they will do this. You may think they will but you can't confirm this until it happens or doesn't happen.

What I'm saying is there are no absolutes.

Now youre just arguing semantics.

[sinsation]

Originally Posted by TaH2k8

Absolutely positively I would. Thats like selling someone your car and then after they buy it saying, "Oh you wanted the engine too? You're gonna have to pay for that as well then."

So you would rather go without the engine? Chances are they lowered the price a bit because of the cut.