Extremely Frustrated About the Chat...

[Elleranda]

Originally Posted by Are'el

Lol. Well, the sort of got it working... eventually. But damn, they sure scaled back a lot of their ideas for that BG.

[FONT=Century Gothic]Actually, AV these days is a deal of ignoring the other faction and completely bypassing eachother, and then they see who can kill the leader and his guards faster. It has become PvE, and I'm not sure that could be counted as working. [/FONT]

Originally Posted by Berecynthia

I am not talking about the map aspect, which is what caused the problems. I am talking about having enemy players aid their own major NPC representatives in these battles.

[FONT=Century Gothic]If there was some fair way to do this, I'd be all for it. But then it opens a whole new can of worms. They can't have it so that the king absolutely can't be killed with good players, but then will he be too easy with crappy players? Will others have to try harder to earn their king kill? Things like this add a ton of things that, unless they are clever , will make things so much harder to balance.[/FONT]

[Are'el]

Originally Posted by Gemini

He's saying the city itself is a combination of both. The king happens to be one part that is PvE, if you don't like it, don't do it. Mythic has always said it's best to progress through both PvE and PvP.

This is exactly correct. People hear "raid," and they automatically think of 5 hour grindfests that need to be repeated 100 times. But the King Encounter is like, 5-10% of the actual City Siege. He's the cherry on the sundae. You romp through hours of PvP goodness, kicking the enemies butt and proving that you are indeed worhty. And this ulocks a final little (well not so little) encounter.

Don't think of the City Siege and the King Encounter as two separate beasts. They're interconnected to form a gigantic, RvR "dungeon."

[Masahiko]

Originally Posted by Berecynthia

I want something a little bit closer to AV from WoW to be honest, where the enemy players can defend and etc, their 'king'.

Originally Posted by Berecynthia

Can the enemy players aid their King, by healing, buffing him? Disrupting the team? No? its a purely PvE raid encounter then.

Defend the city, thats how you help your king out. AV was decently designed instance till people finally realized that it was easier to go around then it was to fight. If your talking about adding players to the mix the king will have to be weaker than people would expect him to be because your adding players to the mix. Adding players isnt going to help the king at all in fact it will probably harm him more than anything in terms of balance.

In the end its easy to say something like that needs to be non instanced and not look at it from a design perspective but if you really want to help the king. Don't let the city fall.

[Are'el]

Originally Posted by Elleranda

[FONT=Century Gothic]Actually, AV these days is a deal of ignoring the other faction and completely bypassing eachother, and then they see who can kill the leader and his guards faster. It has become PvE, and I'm not sure that could be counted as working.[/FONT][FONT=Century Gothic].[/FONT]

Well damn. I left about 2 years ago, and it was pretty fun at the time. Bloody faction rep grinders ruin everything...

[Sycopat]

Ah, here we go.

[WAR]Gersh As I stated before, you can pick up gear in both RvR and PvE... That being said your never going to reach the highest teirs of gear without RvRing.. PvE gear definately ends earlier. The one kicker to the whole RvR only thing is the fact that the best gear comes from the city which means you'll have to participate in some PvE city events such as the king to unlock them.. Well at least if you want to get to them faster =)

See, this implies there are non PVE way's to get the gear, but the quickest way to get the gear is to do both.

Oh and a good reason for why there will be no enemy payer's protecting the King?

Because at this point the city has already fallen, and the enemy player's are (Narratively speaking, and it may be an MMO, but that doesn't mean narrative isn't important) already dead. Karl Franz is many things, but he is not a necromancer.

[Berecynthia]

Originally Posted by Elleranda

[FONT=Century Gothic]If there was some fair way to do this, I'd be all for it. But then it opens a whole new can of worms. They can't have it so that the king absolutely can't be killed with good players, but then will he be too easy with crappy players? Will others have to try harder to earn their king kill? Things like this add a ton of things that, unless they are clever , will make things so much harder to balance.[/FONT]

Blizzard somehow managed to figure all that out, and I am sure that if Blizzard could do it, so could EAMythic. You are going to have to deal with NPCs in the mix of players anyway, I am pretty sure about that.

[Bruhaus]

Originally Posted by Are'el

Well damn. I left about 2 years ago, and it was pretty fun at the time. Bloody faction rep grinders ruin everything...

its nothing like it was 2 years ago (well, up till 2 months ago when i quit). all npcs not in a base or tower have been removed, and the ones that remain have been scaled down.

[Mbj]

Originally Posted by JonoLith

I know I've been acting like a twit on this issue, but there's alot of us that need to know sooner rather then later if raiding is going to be prevalent in this game so we can leave now before spending any more time on this game. I don't mean this as an insult, just as a statement of fact for many of us. We're tired of raiding games, that's why we came to WAR in the first place.

Thanks again for the responce.

Understood. WAR is not a PvE raiding game and the KE is simply a fun way of dealing with lots and lots of excited RvR players (who have taken the city) as well as some PvE players who want to get a piece of the pie. We've been crystal clear on one point pretty much from the DAoC days, RvR is not the same thing as PvP. That pisses off some of the hardcore PvP who are looking for a game that is pure PvP and we worry some of the hardcore PvE folks who don't want any PvP in a game. WAR is being designed to be the best RvR game ever, the spiritual successor to what we started with our MUDs and then we DAoC. Frankly, WAR has way more PvP opportunities/goodness in it than we did with DAoC. However, it also has a stronger PvE component than we had in DAoC. The combination of which should allow players to play through the game in different ways and succeed.

Mark

[Jable]

I was enjoying the aspects of the game that were breaking new boundaries and going against the flow. that dev chat didnt really talk about alot of that stuff for me.

im not interested in how i have to pve as well as pvp to get armor sets. im interested in how you can make the 75 man city instances believable without breaking the 4th wall (like how 6 instances can win and the 5 that lose - how do the 5 that lose maintain any level of immersion)..

the recent information gives us a more thorough impression of plenty of game aspects so i guess my imagination has done me a disservice by conjuring up the wacky ideas it did.

still look forward to playing. i really hope those dwarf animations ive been seeing are placeholders btw. the master swordsman ones were good but i thought the dwarfs looked stiff, a bit like weebles (messed up 1970s plastic egg shaped toy things)..

[Jonesy]

Originally Posted by Berecynthia

Nope. I would be happy for the mere presence of enemy players there in the room with him.

From a storyline perspective, I assume the idea is that your enemy is so totally crushed that they cannot aid their king, thus making it the perfect time to strike him.

From a gameplay perspective, as was mentioned a few posts up, adding player-intelligence to the encounter would require the king himself to be so watered down and static that it would take away a lot of the possible "joy" (since Paul loves that word) of what I'm presuming is a nicely scripted encounter. And how do you account for defending player deaths, and instance allocation for both attackers and defenders (especially if you're letting in fewer defenders to each instance), and so forth.

Will it suck to not be able to feel like you can aid your king in his moment of most dire need? Maybe so, but you've got a good few hours to try and keep it from ever getting there in the first place.

[Bruhaus]

Originally Posted by Berecynthia

Blizzard somehow managed to figure all that out, and I am sure that if Blizzard could do it, so could EAMythic. You are going to have to deal with NPCs in the mix of players anyway, I am pretty sure about that.

tell me, what loot do the av bosses drop? is it some of the best in game?

[Masahiko]

Originally Posted by Berecynthia

Blizzard somehow managed to figure all that out, and I am sure that if Blizzard could do it, so could EAMythic.

To be honest they really didnt. AV "leaders" are weak mobs with 2 abilites. Easily controlled and the defenders can easily be defeated by taking a GY.

If thats what you Recommend for WAR that wouldn't be a every interesting encounter. I have more faith in the war devs to have an interesting encounter without other players than a watered down leader ala wow AV.

[Elleranda]

Originally Posted by Berecynthia

Blizzard somehow managed to figure all that out, and I am sure that if Blizzard could do it, so could EAMythic. You are going to have to deal with NPCs in the mix of players anyway, I am pretty sure about that.

[FONT=Century Gothic]Uh... But they didn't figure it out. Really, I'm trying to not jump on the bandwagon and call you a troll, but when you go and say things like that..

Players have ended up just ignoring eachother and turning it into a PvE experience, because having players in with the battleground leaders makes it so frustrating that it stops being fun. One single player is able to jump in while they are fighting and wipe 30 people.
[/FONT]

[JonoLith]

Originally Posted by Mbj

I've been ignoring all your recent posts because, quite frankly, I have no doubt that you are trolling this place. Don't know why, don't really care. However, I'll jump in here and simply say that to call the King Encounter the pinnacle of WAR is total BS. The pinnacle of WAR, as I've been saying since we signed the deal, is the city siege. The King Encounter is simply one part of it and as my guys have pointed out in interviews, chats, etc., there's lots of other stuff going as well. If that bothers you, I'm sorry but that's how it is.

I'd actually like to talk on this briefly. From a philisophical standpoint it's clear that there's a big difference between what you consider pinnicle, and what we might consider pinnicle. Ultimately in the end it doesn't really matter what we think on the issue as you are the game developer and your philosophy pretty much trumps ours by default.

That said, I do think there is some merit in believing that the King is the pinnicle of the entire RvR conflict. You say that the city seige itself is the pinnicle, and I won't deny that it is certianly a large, and overwhelmingly important thing. Hell, without the city seige there wouldn't be much of a game.

The thing is that for quite a few of us the King does represent, at the very least, a major victory in the confines of that city seige. Yes there's pillaging and looting to be done and everythings gonna be alot of fun and good times, but the king holds a symbolic resonance for alot of us that is quite important.

To put it in the most logical terms possible.
City Seige is the Culmination of the RvR Conflict.
King is the Leader of the City.
Therefore Defeating the King is the Culmination of the RvR Conflict.

He holds such symbolic importance that this is what has happened for many of us, whether or not this is true, of course, will come down to the game mechanics more then anything. If he's a 24 man raid that drops the best gear in the game, then his importance actually is more then simply symbolic because he'll be the literal pinnicle of the loot progression. All the language we've heard come out of Mythic in general is pointing us in the direction that says "The King is going to be the pinnicle of the RvR conflict."

If this isn't the intention then I do have to ask why is the most important loot tied to him, and why are such amazing mechanics tied to him? (Realm Wide Buffs.) I'm not really expecting an answer frankly, I'm simply attempting to continue this fleeting communication that seems to have established itself here.

Ultimately, after your previous post, I'm content taking a wait and see attitude in regards to the King. I admit fully my skeptisism on this one, and only, point in this game, but the rest of the game warrents a "wait and see".

[Grummel]

Originally Posted by Berecynthia

And I am arguing that both should be involved in the king encounter itself, as opposed to having him serve as a giant slice of pure PvE. I don't get what the confusion here is about.

You really need to take the blindfold off, The only way you are going to be able to fight the king is by defeating the opposing realm and CAPTURING the city. And by capturing they mean clearing out all opposing players. This aspect of the game hasn't even been tested in beta yet as mark has stated. Also the devs clearly stated that defeating the king will be the fastest way of obtaining this gear, not the ONLY.

There are many aspects of city siege that have not been talked about ex.. the 3 dungeons, are they RVR dungeons .. who knows, do we get uber gear from them as well? Not sure.... the game is atleast 5-6 months away and there is plenty of info mythic has not told us, and believe me the KE will not be the only thing event in the CS.

Stop making a mountain out of a mole hill