Punkbuster Inclusion, Removal of 4 Classes and 4 Capital Cities from WAR's Release

[Pugnus]

Originally Posted by Razor Boy

Sometimes developers have to realize that there is only so much polish they can do before they have to release the product. OK, fine, let's say the MIA Capital Cities really weren't ready. But we know for a fact that KotBS, Hammerer, Choppa were playable in beta before. Heck, I tried the Hammerer and Choppa a year ago at GenCon Indy! I think at this stage it would be better to release these classes at start - stale though they may be in the developers' opinion - and then fix them by increments after the release. As they said themselves, there's no such thing as perfect class balance, and no one expects the classes to remain completely static after launch. So why cut them, especially when work had already gone into making them playable? It just doesn't make any sense! In fact, it hurts the game a lot more than releasing these 'boring' classes might have been! Hey, you're an Empire/DE player? Good luck getting a tank for an instance or PQ until HE or Dwarven players (or respectively Chaos and Ork players) decide that they had enough of their own racial zones! I can only hope that Open Beta will make up for this announcement. If Mythic drops the ball on that as well... All the AoC-hate threads are going to pale by comparison...

I feel the same way. I, for one, never expected Mythic to have 24 unique classes balanced at release. I knew there were going to be classes that needed work, some that needed nerfs, and some that needed tweaks to make them more interesting. And I know that they won't release with 20 balanced classes, either. It's simply not a realistic goal.

I think players would have been more tolerant of the subpar classes than Mythic thinks. Every MMO I've played has had at least one clearly inferior class in at launch, but people play them anyway. Sure, they fill the forums with complaints for months, but they still play the class, waiting for fixes. In fact, I know people who deliberately seek out inferior classes, either to play an underdog or to be well-positioned when the class fixes roll out.

Probably my biggest concern with cut classes is that by the time they are introduced players intending to reroll to the reintroduced class will be significantly behind the curve. The level and gear gaps are bad enough, but the renown gap will be the biggest hurdle. I don't know how fast renown levels are earned, but from what I understand renown, especially at the upper levels, is supposed to take large amounts of time and effort to earn. A new character could be months behind a day 1 character in renown. I bet most players would rather level an inferior character which would eventually fixed than start all over with a "fixed" character.

[Sargonnis]

Mark,

Can we please get clarification (as in detailed, not vague anymore) on why you cut the tank classes? Also, why do you guys think it is worse to have a slightly inferior class that gets fixed later over having none at all? I do not think we are asking for much here...

[-Taviun-]

Originally Posted by Pugnus

I feel the same way. I, for one, never expected Mythic to have 24 unique classes balanced at release. I knew there were going to be classes that needed work, some that needed nerfs, and some that needed tweaks to make them more interesting. And I know that they won't release with 20 balanced classes, either. It's simply not a realistic goal.

I think players would have been more tolerant of the subpar classes than Mythic thinks. Every MMO I've played has had at least one clearly inferior class in at launch, but people play them anyway. Sure, they fill the forums with complaints for months, but they still play the class, waiting for fixes. In fact, I know people who deliberately seek out inferior classes, either to play an underdog or to be well-positioned when the class fixes roll out.

Probably my biggest concern with cut classes is that by the time they are introduced players intending to reroll to the reintroduced class will be significantly behind the curve. The level and gear gaps are bad enough, but the renown gap will be the biggest hurdle. I don't know how fast renown levels are earned, but from what I understand renown, especially at the upper levels, is supposed to take large amounts of time and effort to earn. A new character could be months behind a day 1 character in renown. I bet most players would rather level an inferior character which would eventually fixed than start all over with a "fixed" character.

You will be amazingly surprised at how balanced the classes are at launch. You can believe me or not... bottom line is you will see for yourself.

I honestly think this game will release and be the most PvP balanced MMORPG at launch... ever.

I think this is what Mythic was going for. They can survey the RvR scene for a few months, tweak the development classes and add them. This isn't Blizzard. They will actually watch PvP closely and implement content.

For months now people raved about the class balance and how good it is now. They, including myself feared the reintroduction of these cut classes back into the BETA. It was too many additions flooding an already balanced game.

All the conventions and such were the same result. I'm incredibly happy with this decision. Sucks for the launch... but in the long run its going to pay off.

[Barundin162]

I agree that I dont think there was sufficient reason to ditch the tank Classes. With the Hammerer/Choppa something was probably wrong with the mechanic and they needed to wait. This while very not cool, only has teh effect of making the dwarf/greenskin areas fighting seem slower and more stagnant.

With the tank classes there are serious imbalance issues arriving. Also what is wrong with their mechanics, they sound great. Be a tank that gives great buff to your group, sounds good. A tank that damages increases as he and his group cause more damage, jobs a good un.

I think we do deserve an explanation. If I have to say if any of the classes will stay the same (look and name wise) it would be the tanks, as thier sisters are fine and there is no reason to throw out all the artwork and designing.

With the Dwarfs and Orcs I could understand them completely starting over, although I think it is unnessacry as we have seen both in vids and they looked great and many who have played them said they were great.

@ Tauvin

It wont be balanced at launch. Without tanks Empire and Delf will loose 90% of the time...and wont be able to gain much from PvE as tanks are even more important there

[Underdark]

btw, like me many ppl are waiting for the game, for a very long time now, how can you give out so many release periods and delay them ... if you dont have 4 core classes ready and the Capital cities done?

how can you explain delay something that isn't done, it shouldnt even be announced to start with, the more i think about this the more angry i feel, all the community support, news and whatever more just feels like a spit to the face...

Me and a lot of friends that actually wanted to play together are considering has of now, to keep playing AoC, has bugged it may be at least it delivered the most signinficant part of the game intact, thing Mythic Entertaiment is telling now they will be completly failing, 4 Capital citys? 4 Classes not working how can this be even considered? DO wake up pls, your professionalism is starting to really break down has of now... Release the full game when its done, not some broken with half baked content, and i say this for the community that was been understanding up until now hoping for a good game, also for the server population balance and many other problems that will appear because of this crap decision...

MOTD: The suspense was terrible, the game will be worst. Hope this news wont last...

[Abriael]

Originally Posted by Mbj

No, the other CCs will not be there at launch, that's the point. I thought I've made that abundantly clear in my posts here and in the interview. The CCs will be put in over time but not, repeat not available at launch.

I'm not worried about that honestly. I doubt having two capital cities instead of six, initially, will have any big impact on both the flavor and the balance of the game. Content-wise the game seems very solid.

But us missing the only human tank (and the only character that even remotely fits the "knight in shining armor" archetype, which is massively popular) and at the same time the only female-able destruction tank really bothers me. I do think that that will not only lead to balance issues, but even to a shortage of tanks, expecially order side, where one tank doesn't really "feel" like a tank, and the other has the same propostions of a barrel. And believe me, not having enough tanks influences general gameplay in a REALLY serious way.

We really lack variation in that. Both elves and dwarves are extremely characterized, and many don't like that, because they like to base their character (even roleplay wise) more on it's backstory and it's class than on it's racial characterization. That's why normally human gets more variety in class choices than other races, such variety is now missing in Warhammer Online, and the inability of someone that choses human, to play what's probably the most indispensible archetype in a MMORPG, makes things quite dire.

In addition to that, without the KOTBS and the BG, i'm afraid that now Warhammer doesn't really represent sufficently the imperial and the dark elven races and armies, both armies are represented in their lighter, support-ish side, but they both lack their heavily armored and heavily armed "core" upon which their flavor is clearly based. In my hunble opinion, having the empire represented just by wizards, priests and wich hunters, and dark elves represented just by sorcerers, accolytes and witch elves, doesn't do those two races justice.

What i can tell you, is that I hope that Mythic will see the long list of issues that come from removing the KOTBS and the Black Guard (I think, having read a lot of threads about this, that this in the end is the change that most debaffles and saddens people, in proportion.), both gameplay and flavor-wise, and will put further effort in trying to revert this change and at least "save" them. You can still call upon your beta community, if your designers are having problems finding inspiration let us help. Many of us played tanks ever since the term was first associated with MMORPGS and know the warhammer lore pretty well. I'm sure as I can be that, if you asked the beta communities (american and european) for insight, you'll get the inspiration you need in less than 2 weeks.

Also, I bet that reinstating the two tank classes would reinstate a lot of the positivity about the game that seems to have gone a bit away in the community, that being the major issue i see discussed across the board. I know it's asking a lot, but we're more than willing to lend our brains to make it happen.

[-Taviun-]

Originally Posted by Sargonnis

Mark,

Can we please get clarification (as in detailed, not vague anymore) on why you cut the tank classes? Also, why do you guys think it is worse to have a slightly inferior class that gets fixed later over having none at all? I do not think we are asking for much here...

Because each faction has an equal set of classes to fill the desired roles. Not only that... but the classes are well balanced. No cookie cutter bullsh*t like in WoW as far as speccing yourself with renown ranks etc.

When A matches A
B matches B
C matches C

Why add more A, B's and C's when they wouldn't be the best choice for their role and be underdeveloped? It would turn into a massive flame fest on the classes forums... demands, complaints, threats to cancel etc...

Hell look at the Mage forums on Age of Conan when the game launched lol

With this decision made they can theoretically wipe the classes roles, give it another more fitting one for groups that makes them the most desirable choice.

[-Taviun-]

Originally Posted by Barundin162

I agree that I dont think there was sufficient reason to ditch the tank Classes. With the Hammerer/Choppa something was probably wrong with the mechanic and they needed to wait. This while very not cool, only has teh effect of making the dwarf/greenskin areas fighting seem slower and more stagnant.

With the tank classes there are serious imbalance issues arriving. Also what is wrong with their mechanics, they sound great. Be a tank that gives great buff to your group, sounds good. A tank that damages increases as he and his group cause more damage, jobs a good un.

I think we do deserve an explanation. If I have to say if any of the classes will stay the same (look and name wise) it would be the tanks, as thier sisters are fine and there is no reason to throw out all the artwork and designing.

With the Dwarfs and Orcs I could understand them completely starting over, although I think it is unnessacry as we have seen both in vids and they looked great and many who have played them said they were great.

@ Tauvin

It wont be balanced at launch. Without tanks Empire and Delf will loose 90% of the time...and wont be able to gain much from PvE as tanks are even more important there

Untrue

The availabity to click and enter other starting areas, as well as que for those regions RvR scenarios will be in at launch.

Im going shaman and intend to level in the chaos starting area. Like they said at the many conventions... the starting areas will not hinder you to staying there. IE trainers are TRAINERS... not Shaman Trainer, Chosen Trainer etc etc

Not many of my friends want to be greenskins and I love the chaos starting area.

[Barundin162]

Originally Posted by -Taviun-

Because each faction has an equal set of classes to fill the desired roles. Not only that... but the classes are well balanced. No cookie cutter bullsh*t like in WoW as far as speccing yourself with renown ranks etc.

When A matches A
B matches B
C matches C
.

But right now its:

A matches A (althout it will be slower and stagnant)
B doesnt match B (B2 will beat B1)
C doesnt match C (B1 will beat B2)

In regards to your latest:
What abuot those of us who dont wanna leave the Dwarf/greenskin zone? I dont wanna fight in the Empire zone...I wanna fight in my zone...although it no longer serves a purpose to be there, at least it will be more dwarfy. We have been pretty much told that we are not imporatant enough to have a meaningful end game....Once the dwarfs and greenies get to 40 there will be a mass exodus from the areas, same for elfs....even if they implement mechanics to retain us it wont be the same as having a true goal.....itll be just like all the other MMOs that have no direction.

But like I said, the Classes are the big problem, as long as all cities are in no longer than 6 months after launch the game will survive, many not be as popular as it could have been, but it will survive.

With the classes the game may never truly take off

[Abriael]

Originally Posted by -Taviun-

Because each faction has an equal set of classes to fill the desired roles. Not only that... but the classes are well balanced. No cookie cutter bullsh*t like in WoW as far as speccing yourself with renown ranks etc.

This adresses balance, but there isn't only balance in MMORPGs, there's also flavor, aesthetics and variation. In WoW they can afford having few classes at release because many classes were available to every given race, allowing players of any race to chose between basically every available archetype (expecially tanks). Not allowing humans and dark elves to be tanks effectively bars the two races from such role. In warhammer all classes are race specific, this means that at the very least each race should be able to have one damager (ranged or melee), one tank, and one support.

Now the vast majority of players, expecially casuals (but not only, this applies to warhammer tabletop players as well, and to many others), chose their race as the very first choice in the game, mostly due to flavor and aesthetics. ALmost no one wants to play a character whose aesthetics he doesn't appreciate (for instance, I'd hate to play a dwarf, and i'm not exactly keen to play an elf).
removing tanks from the Empire and Dark elves meaning telling all the people that chose one of those races to begin with "Sorry, but you can play one of the most needed roles in a MMORPG".
Why shouldn't I be allowed to play a tank because i don't like my character to have the proportions of a barrel or having pointy ears and looking alien?

It's a true gaping hole in the line-up of those two races. And IMHO, it isn't a good choice, and it'll turn off a lot of people.

Originally Posted by -Taviun-

Not many of my friends want to be greenskins and I love the chaos starting area.

That's your case. but it doesn't apply to all.

[Fruitpunch]

When you think about it the classes all balance out now. There are 10 melee classes and 10 ranged classes.

Melee

• Ironbreaker
• Witch Hunter
• Warrior Priest
• Swordmaster
• White Lion
• Black Ork
• Chosen
• Marauder
• Witch Elf
• Disciple

Ranged

• Engineer
• Runepriest
• Bright Wizard
• Shadow Warrior
• Archmage
• Squig Herder
• Shaman
• Magus
• Zealot
• Sorceror

But seriously try to get cities in ASAP. Like first or second patch.

[Ningiliath]

The problem is it CAN'T be balanced with the exclusion of the 4 classes.

You have an imbalance in that there is less anti ranged classes.

6 ranged classes to the 4 Melee DPS.

So in massive RvR its safer to play a Ranged Career, you have less people able to effectively neutralize you. That right there leads to an over abundance of Casters which turns it into a long range sniper fight with a little melee thrown in.

While you can start in any races starting zone, most people , not all, will stick with their own race. Thats where you as a person in WAR get all your back story. I don't see my Disciple learning a whole lot about Dark Elf history in the Green skin zone.

Put the classes in beta, all but one have been there before, and let the testers test them, give feed back, they might think of something Mythic missed. I mean if it was not for the testers we would not have keeps or Mastery Paths. Let them take a shot at it, if they say they don't work right than cut them, but at least let the player base test them before you cut them.

Cities I can deal with as long as they make it in shortly after release. You NEED all archetypes for every race to have balance.

The reason I personally found this news upsetting is that we were already told several times that all this was in the game and just needing polish.

[Mbj]

Folks,

A few things and then I'm probably signing off these threads as I've said here and elsewhere everything that I can say regarding these changes. Over the next few weeks we'll be talking a lot more, especially after the NDA lift.

1) For those that are saying that they should cancel their pre-order, that they feel betrayed after ordering it, well, if that's how you feel, you should do exactly that. That's why we made these announcements now and didn't hold them back just before release (when it would be too late to cancel) or not even make them at all. So, I can understand people being upset but saying that we weren't acting with integrity is just wrong.

2) Regarding this content going in as paid expansion packs, not likely. We want to give out plenty of free/subscription content, just like in DAoC, if you're a subscriber, you get the content as part of your monthly fee as these things are part of the plan. Now, just so we're clear again, I'm not sure that these 4 careers will go back into the game now or ever. They'll only go in if they are great. We want to get the next city pairing in as soon as possible but only after we are sure that we've had enough time to fix what will inevitably go wrong with the the first pairing and make sure that it goes into the second pairing. We do not, repeat do not, have any plans to make this content available as a separate expansion pack.

3) Regarding other MMORPGs and cut content, there has never been a single large-scale MMORPG that hasn't cut out ideas/content that might have looked good either on paper or even during development. That's just how it goes when you are working on a game that can take anywhere from 3-6 years to develop that has as many systems/features/content as these games. Anyone who says otherwise hasn't been paying enough attention to a MMO development or is being less than truthful. Things change all the time during development and sometimes things that are cut are cut for the best reasons.

4) Regarding the concept that everything was in the game and working great and that we only delayed the game for polish, sorry but that is not true. When we announced the delay for Fall I said:

http://warherald.warhammeronline.com...le.war?id=111:

"During the most recent phase of beta testing, two things have become clear. One was that our key innovations - Public Quests, Tome of Knowledge and Realm vs. Realm combat - were all coming along very well, as was the first stage of our innovative crafting system. The second, that the game would benefit from additional iteration time as well as adding a layer of polish or two. Fortunately, as part of Electronic Arts, we are able to do just that."

Iteration time + additional polish time. Here on WHA I also talked about iteration time and polish time as two separate things. I'm sorry, like I said, I can understand people being upset but when they say I said that everything was great and all we needed was polish time, that's simply untrue.

Mark

[Ningiliath]

Yes but thats only balanced as far as numbers go.

Casters, who already have a large advantage over melee due to range, now also have less classes that can reliably kill them.

Not going all doomsayer but it's NOT balanced.

[Barundin162]

Originally Posted by Ningiliath

The problem is it CAN'T be balanced with the exclusion of the 4 classes.

.

Qouted for truth, its just not possible.

I agree about your closing as well, the hardest part about this is that it was just us that were mislead, but its that Mythic is betraying themselves. How many hundreds of times have we heard, "It will be done when its done" and "It will be released when its ready"

Well its not done and its not ready, dont get me wrong Mythic, yall have been doing a great job so far, but I dont see how you could try to justify this.


EDIT: Ok this needs to be said, we deserve to know now if the classes will never be out in...cause if they arent I will be forced to cancel, as much as youd like to think the opposite, the game will not be balanced without those 4 classes...and we deserve to know if this new war is never gonna be the WAR we wanted