Why WAR is Failing to Live Up to its Father MMO

[Mahaf]

First, allow me to say that I was an avid player of DAoC, and I thoroughly enjoyed that playing experience. I enjoyed using the terrain to hide our forces and wait to ambush our opponents. Truly ambushing them. I thoroughly enjoyed how the terrain played as much a part of the battle as your group composition.

I also thoroughly enjoyed the keep layouts, and the fact that walls were destructible. This added a level of flexibility and uniqueness to keep sieges that is still unheard of in this new generation of MMOs. I enjoyed how capturing towers was meaningful, and being able to use trebuchets from those towers lent a real advantage to the realm (it could be used as a forward camp). I also enjoyed the fact that sneaky classes could get into the keep without blowing holes in the wall. It keeps you on your toes as a support character, even when in the relative safety of the keep’s high walls. However, ninja’ing keeps should be impossible.

Second, allow me to say that this post is full of my opinions. I do not try to pose my own opinions as empirical fact.

My opinion is that DAoC’s RvR system is still far superior to the one we currently have in WAR. It seems Mythic has taken the worst of their original system and thought it was the best. What we have in WAR is a shadow of the former glory of RvR. Terrains lack interesting and tactically viable features, keeps are linear and sieges are identical and boring, other objectives aren’t worth the time to take, and owning a keep is far more strenuous and far less rewarding than in the original system. I’m not sure how Mythic managed to land itself so far away from its first real gem as a game developer.

With that said the basis for an arguably more enjoyable RvR system (than was in DAoC) can be found in WAR. The lore is interesting enough, the world beautiful enough, and the playerbase hungry enough. But before that can happen, there has to be a major overhaul of the current system:

• Sieges need to resemble those of DAoC much more closely. Siege engines are mobile, if somewhat cumbersome, and to have siege pads is an insult to the intelligence of the playerbase. It feels like Mythic is telling us “We don't think you would know where to put them, so allow us to tell you where to place those siege engines.” I can understand having pads on the keep walls.. 38 cannons lined up along a keep wall would be ridiculous, but there should not be pre-selected spots for engines outside the keep. Trebuchets need to make a comeback. They were developed in the middle ages for a reason, and that was to breach the walls of a keep without putting the attackers in danger. This forced the defenders to actually plan therir defense, not just sit on the walls shooting arrows downward and pouring oil out of a large cauldron. This, in and of itself, will go a long way in improving WAR’s RvR.

• Terrain in the open RvR areas needs to be livened up. I’ve not ran across a single river wide enough to warrant wanting to go over a bridge. In fact, I’ve not seen a river at all worth calling it that, from T1 to T3. These were diamonds in the rough in DAoC. They were often overlooked as an important part of what made RvR there great, but they were a large part nonetheless. You were slowed considerably swimming, and as such, large groups, instead, opted to cross bridges. And there we have a natural chokepoint worth defending. Something that can’t be simply defended by a cauldron of oil and ranged DPS. Something that actually required coordination to both defend and assault effectively. Something fun. Why does all the terrain in WAR seem either a cliff or rolling plains? Why aren't there large hills around which two warbands could ride without ever seeing each other? In fact, terrain is so lacking right now I barely even notice it when riding through it. Maybe there are large hills, but I haven't noticed any.

• Keep layouts in WAR are, outside the main chambers, interesting enough. The courtyards are varied in both size and shape. Inside with the lord, however, it seems Mythic got lazy: one ramp up to the Lord, no more than 5 players wide. There are no tactical options present in this setup. It’s boring and frustrating. There’s no fun in this. Adding just another ramp, and widening them a bit, or maybe even changing a couple keeps to include winding ramps instead of the same old boring straight ramps would help tremendously. However, adding a couple staircases on the sides the ramps do not occupy would make for some extremely fun and hectic battles. I would ask, why not?

• Owning a keep should be a thing of great pride for a guild, and something worth calling its members to defend. Currently, owning a keep is really nothing but a strain on a guild’s pockets. In Albion, a guild of any good size could afford to own a keep, and most could upgrade it fully. There was really no reward for owning the keep, though other than your name under it on the map and your heraldry hanging on the banners outside the keep. This was enough to make guild’s jump at the chance of claiming them, though. It also developed rivalries between guilds. Your banner displayed proudly upon the walls of the keep and the backs of its guards is reward enough. I believe that this isn’t something that players will simply take up, though. It will only come once taking a keep is a unique challenge every time and paying to maintain is easy enough. There’s really no need to put a hefty price on maintaining a keep – defending it for the honor of your guild is price enough.
  

This was a somewhat windier post than I first imagined it would be, but I felt I wanted to open people’s minds up to comparison of the WAR system and the DAoC system. I’m interested to hear the opinions of people who have played both games as well as (and maybe even more) people who have not. Would you enjoy being able to tear down the walls of a keep? Would you enjoy being able to choose a chokepoint like a bridge as your frontlines, falling back to the keep after this forward point is lost? Would you enjoy having a tower to serve as a forward base camp and gathering place for your warband, with walls that protect your teammates as you readied yourselves for the keep siege?

[bruskey2004]

Yeah I have to agree, while i am having a lot of fun on Warhammer, if DAoC still had a large population id go back in an instant.

[Didier]

I agree with you.

I'd like to see more tactical possibilities ingame.

Mythic just needs our feedback and time to implement it.

So keep your good feedback going, i for myself appreciate it

[Wrektem]

Since DAoC didn't post 10 million subscribers they were trying to change the formula. I think they can actually improve on it...but oRvR wasn't really much of the game until late in development. I think the word "failure" is a bit to harsh since it was never the intent. They will need time to add stuff...like catapults that launch destro onto walls!

[Mahaf]

Originally Posted by Didier

I agree with you.

I'd like to see more tactical possibilities ingame.

Mythic just needs our feedback and time to implement it.

So keep your good feedback going, i for myself appreciate it

I agree, unfortunately many have already made their minds up that the RvR isn't what was promised, and until Mythic announces a major overhaul, these players probably won't come back to try it out. If Mythic does this gradually, piece by piece, the improvements will go largely unnoticed by those who have already cancelled. I hate talking subscriptions, but I love Mythic, and I know without them Mythic will cease to be. I would like to see them announce it as one large patch on the horizon, if they are planning on any kind of overhaul.

[Red_Dog]

Originally Posted by Mahaf

I agree, unfortunately many have already made their minds up that the RvR isn't what was promised, and until Mythic announces a major overhaul, these players probably won't come back to try it out. If Mythic does this gradually, piece by piece, the improvements will go largely unnoticed by those who have already cancelled. I hate talking subscriptions, but I love Mythic, and I know without them Mythic will cease to be. I would like to see them announce it as one large patch on the horizon, if they are planning on any kind of overhaul.

I know Mythic needs these people, but I don't really care if people who think an MMORPG is finished and perfect from day one leave.

[Stingray]

The biggest issues I think with WAR compared to DAoC is

A: Some of the T4 zones are too enclosed... all they are are chokepoints this promotes zerging.

B: Keep layout in WAR is NOTHING like in DAoC... Defenders had an advantage in DAoC, but not such a huge one as in WAR. First off attackers should be able to look into the LR without getting agro from lords... big issue in WAR is that casters can focus AOE the top of stairs, and healers can heal tanks without even being able to be hit back. In DAoC there was a small room before the LR that attackers could push into to kill people in the back of the LR while not agroing lord.

Outer Walls were close enough for attacking casters to use to hit the casters on the middle keep part... while the inner keep seemed to have more areas for cover. This made it so you COULD suppress the enemy casters well.

Make Inner keeps BIGGER... I liked the multi engagement battles for a keep in DAoC where the defenders would hold out on the roof then charge back down to retake then offense would push back up, and so forth. In fact the Inner Keeps in WAR are smaller than the higher level TOWERs in DAoC.

C: Collision Detection: great idea but Mythic clearly is having issues with it with most of all Keep layout. The keeps (Inner) are smaller than DAoC keeps and have more chokepoints that often get clogged with just attackers trying to come through a door... then all you need is 2 or 3 tanks and you have a wall preventing any movement.

D: Keep Lords... IN DAoC they seemed to not hit as hard (unless in the uber keep), but were tougher (they would self heal too). Same should be for WAR... the Lord should NOT be your defense. So increase Lord HP, decrease damage, and give them a self heal that can not be interupted so the keep can not be ninjaed. Perhaps instead of uber damage give them nice debuffs. So the lord can be someone who you defend and not who defends you. Basicly trying to ninja a keep with a small group is impossable, and its harder to kill a Lord but requires defenders.

[Darkhosis]

I quit DAoC after 3 months because my lvl (EDIT: LEVEL 50, too much warhammer) 40 defensive specced Armsman got 2 shot by a lvl 27 hibernian Ranger, even after mythic had >4 weeks to fix such a glaring balance issue.

Since I didn't play DAoC for a long period of time, I cant comment on what they might have fixed or changed later.. I can only say that I don't see much difference in Warhammer as far as balance issues still not being fixed... not to mention the numerous game-breaking bugs that are still in existance, i.e. the +0.5s to cast time is actually +1s, can stack w/ other people's + cast time (disorient), and also does not even allow the spell to go thru until you begin to cast another one.... this has been broken for weeks.

The volatile potions (and apothecary in general) has been borked since the game came out, concussive and potent runes rune priest tactics have been broken since the game came out, can go on and on with this really.

Given that I've played warhammer for 3 months now same as DAoC, I guess Mythic hasnt really learned from previous experience

[Hotcakes]

I heard Warhammer Online isn't DAOC 2

I heard DAOC has been out for 7 years

I heard Warhammer Online has been out for 3 months

[InternetChampion]

There is no official forum, therefore mythic doesn't hear or care about your ideas. but maybe a dev whos off work who plays might wind up on this website. til then i don't know the purpose of spewing ideas that will never be implemented unless the creators of WAR think of them completely independently of you and decide they are good enough to put in. the mods of this website don't work for mythic.

ps. to the, "this game isn't finished" comment. with the MMO market as competitive as it is right now, releasing a game with large fundamental flaws makes you bleed subscriptions rather quickly (example: Warhammer: Age of Reckoning)

[Keiser]

I completely agree with this assessment and it's exactly what I've been thinking. DAoC's RvR ideals were definitely better than what we have with WAR right now, but WAR is a great, solid foundation to be built upon. If eventually the DAoC ideals are implanted into WAR's engine (oh and keep beefing it up so we can have some effin' fortress caps please), I can see WAR being awesome and beyond what DAoC was.

Now, we're still only what 3 months after release and they've made great strides so far. I've never played an MMO that was perfect and/or exactly what developers envisioned when they started. Even WoW, which is now famous for it's endgame raid PvE, had ZERO endgame when it launched. Honestly, I think they considered a 10-15 man Scholomance endgame. Molten Core and Onyxia were the first raids and were barely more than tank'n'spank.

I think Mythic can turn this ship around, but the clock is definitely ticking, and rather loudly at that.

[Siegmen]

Originally Posted by InternetChampion

There is no official forum, therefore mythic doesn't hear or care about your ideas. but maybe a dev whos off work who plays might wind up on this website. til then i don't know the purpose of spewing ideas that will never be implemented unless the creators of WAR think of them completely independently of you and decide they are good enough to put in. the mods of this website don't work for mythic.

Not true at all:

1. Mythic uses the feedback feature instead of forums to get a truer picture of accual active player opinion. Forums are full of people who talk and don't even play.

2. MBJ used to post frequently on this site ( you can use the dev post tracker if you want to see the proof). So therefore Mythic may see what ever is posted here. For a while This was practically the 'official' unofficial warhammer forums (back when it was warhammeronline.net even).

3. DAOC proved mythic listens to the players. Too bad the changes came too late.

Originally Posted by Mahaf

Sieges need to resemble those of DAoC much more closely.

WAR at a few months old is much farther along then the sieges in DAOC where at that age. But the point behind your statement is true; More diversity in the fights plz.

Originally Posted by Mahaf

Terrain in the open RvR areas needs to be livened up.

OK

Originally Posted by Mahaf

Keep layouts in WAR are, outside the main chambers, interesting enough. The courtyards are varied in both size and shape. Inside with the lord, however, it seems Mythic got lazy: one ramp up to the Lord, no more than 5 players wide. There are no tactical options present in this setup. It’s boring and frustrating. There’s no fun in this. Adding just another ramp, and widening them a bit, or maybe even changing a couple keeps to include winding ramps instead of the same old boring straight ramps would help tremendously. However, adding a couple staircases on the sides the ramps do not occupy would make for some extremely fun and hectic battles. I would ask, why not?

Forts/castles/keeps all have the one entry one exit design specifically to make them easier to defend. I have seen the roof to the LR pushes in WAR just like from DAOC; the difference is there are no RA's or EOY to mass rez a whole tower full of players. People normlly decide to make thier last stand in thr LR's becuase the lord is so much more powerful then the wannabe mobs in daoc.

Originally Posted by Mahaf

Owning a keep should be a thing of great pride for a guild, and something worth calling its members to defend.

The only way to make defense something someone (as a guild) wants to do is to give bonuses to rp/inf. If you defend an alliance keep you get 10% bonus inf/rp and 20% if it's your guild keep. Also let the guilds upgrade their keeps w/ more/better renown merchants/special gaurds etc. Then keeps will be worth defending (as a guild). Out side of the inf/rp bonus whiel defending the keeps, they should give a global bonus to the members of the guild so it os always worth keeping. Set it to be upgradeable and changable liek the tactics on the guild standards (i.e. +5% for rare droped loot, etc.)

[CondiRice]

Agree on pretty much all points. Keeps definitely need (and probably will get) redesigns. Terrain I doubt would be touched. Bugs and server performance I have to imagine are top priority right now, though.

But frankly I think the biggest thing needed for oRvR is a way to focus the fighting. Musical BOs and keep swapping must die.

[Mahaf]

Originally Posted by Hotcakes

I heard Warhammer Online isn't DAOC 2

I heard DAOC has been out for 7 years

I heard Warhammer Online has been out for 3 months

Mythic touted before release that they had learned from DAoC as far as PvP goes, even using the same term for it they coined with DAoC: Realm vs. Realm. It's only reasonable to think they would take the features from their first and implement it into their second. They strayed too far from the first MMOs system than I had hoped they would, though. As far as Warhammer only being released for three months, I still fail to see why the game they learned from currently has a superior keep siege system then the game they applied the knowledge to. If they learned from their mistakes, why are they making them once again? Maybe it's restrictions from the game engine, in which case I feel for them, but if not..


Siegman, are you proposing keeps should have only one entrance? I think this makes the sieges identical and somewhat monotonous. All keep sieges are the same right now, save for different scenery. It's ram, door, and oil. Everything else done has a negligible effect on the siege (save for arguably guarding the postern). Being able to tear down walls and open up multiple entrances - as well as making the inner keep just as varied as the courtyards with multiple routes to the lord - would only liven the siege, and give each siege a uniqueness. As I have stated before, it would also give MDPS a role, attempting to take out the siege weapons before they poke a hole in the wall of the keep. As things stand, sieges are so restricted and identical that there's not any thought given to how to approach an assault or a defense. Each class does one thing when assaulting, one when defending, and there's really no flexibility there.

I enjoy your ideas on rewarding guilds that own a keep. Making it global for the entire guild gives the PvE players a reason to take a break and defend their keep every once in a while, too, which I see is a good thing in an MMO that's all about PvP.

[Whoodoo]

I played DAoC for all 7 years, and have recent resubed to play again with old pals who didnt get on with WAR, but I do have hope in this game, but not much in the devs at present.

As said, MJ said numerous times, this is nto DAoC2, but it would take with it the lessons learnt from one of the best PvP MMOs, but sadly they didnt.

Choke points, realistic seige (like shown in the trailers!!!), terrain that provided both cover for defending and hide holes for ambushing are all things we thought we would see. The cinematic trailer showed so much promise. Alas we find terrain way too open, keeps that have 1 way in only, seige that is static, clumsy and lazy, keep floors bugged to hell and back, poor design resulting in an inability to acutally see whats going on at points, stair cases so lazily put together that have no sides, are very poor for LOS, in fact everything DAoC had right is wrong in this game. Heck you cant even swim under the surface of the water, and thats just daft (not to mention taking the same falling damage landing in water and on land, go figure!).

So instead of walls we get NPCs, instead of portable siege we get casters, instead of decent rams we get tanks, instead of covering terrain and objects we have to heal and pray we dont get RSI spamming the buttons, we find it hard to ambush anyone because our names are visiable from a mile off behind a tree the size of a house. Crowd control is just pathetic, instead of doing away with the DAoC timers and types, they made more annoying versions, but not the 1 minute mezz we used to get, just no cooldown so we can be spammed with it instead, one thing Mythic took care of in the very early days of DAoC, why have they forgotten?

I totally agree with the OP, Mythic should have learnt lessons, but it seems they are not just repeating them, they are adding to their prior mistakes that eventually pushed people away from such a great game. Lets hope any future expansions are not as unpopular as ToA, mass PvE isnt everyones cup of tea, and shouldnt be forced upon everyone in order to compete.