Warhammer Alliance Podcast 4: The Ship Of Fools Is That Way

[PhoenixRed]

The WAP is back with yet another episode where we blabber on incessantly about WAR's good and bad things! We have a super-extended version of the podcast for you to cover Ariwyn's NYCC coverage of WAR! Please leave comments, questions and feedback, because you never know - we might give you a shout-out on future episodes!

Introduction (5 minutes)

• Intros via poll question: "What Age Did You Realize You Were a Geek?"
• New host introduction

Special Segment - New York Comic Con WAR coverage/info/reactions (15 minutes)

Community Hot Topic (10 minutes)

• Double Hot Topics - 300k Subscribers and Mythic Layoffs

Show Feedback (5 minutes)

• Feedback from the podcast thread: thanks to Mutters, crawl, kuno00, and Lexxington.

WAR Survival Guide (5 minutes)

• Tips and tricks for surviving: Night of Murder

Community Poll Pingback (5 minutes)

• Poll on Crowd Control

Community Tour of Duty (5 minutes)

• Podcasts: Lagwar
• Forums: VN WAR Forums

Total length: 53:19 minutes

Podcast Home
GCast Subscription XML Link
Direct MP3 download
iTunes URL

[Ariwyn-WHA]

You just reminded me how busy I was all last week

[DreamLane]

+1 WAP subscriber

[kuno00]

Again, a good episode.
Although the sound quality was rather bad this time, especially Martin was awefully quiet.

I'm just going to pick up on the CC topic here. As you can see I'm a withhunter, therefore supposedly killing healers and stuff. What basically came from your Podcast was the implication that tanks and healers should have cc, everyone else just depend on their dps...which really doesn't sound bad to start it off.
The real problem is, I'm not killing anyone with DPS. Sure without damage I wouldn't be killing anyone, but unless you're rolling in a Zerg you're not going to kill anyone without using CC. You can't kill healers without halving their heal-ability or silencing them...they'll even find the time to /lol you if you don't cc them in some way.

Basically if you want some of the mdps cc gone, you're either going to see an increase of dps or a decrease of heal. If neither of those come you're definately going to see an increase in zergs and a decrease in roaming 6-man groups.

And thanks for the mention

[PhoenixRed]

Originally Posted by kuno00

Again, a good episode.
Although the sound quality was rather bad this time, especially Martin was awefully quiet.

I might take another pass and re-upload. Something didn't quite mesh right in the encoding and that's why the volumes are so variable. But you won't have to do anything in iTunes and the like.

If anyone out there has podcasting audio experience though, I'd love to chat with you. PM me.

[Anglakhel]

Originally Posted by kuno00

Again, a good episode.
Although the sound quality was rather bad this time, especially Martin was awefully quiet.

I'm just going to pick up on the CC topic here. As you can see I'm a withhunter, therefore supposedly killing healers and stuff. What basically came from your Podcast was the implication that tanks and healers should have cc, everyone else just depend on their dps...which really doesn't sound bad to start it off.
The real problem is, I'm not killing anyone with DPS. Sure without damage I wouldn't be killing anyone, but unless you're rolling in a Zerg you're not going to kill anyone without using CC. You can't kill healers without halving their heal-ability or silencing them...they'll even find the time to /lol you if you don't cc them in some way.

Basically if you want some of the mdps cc gone, you're either going to see an increase of dps or a decrease of heal. If neither of those come you're definately going to see an increase in zergs and a decrease in roaming 6-man groups.

And thanks for the mention

Kuno00

I personally don't think Healers should a lot of CC. Their primary advantage in the Archetype interaction is their ability to Heal and provide support through Buffs. Healing is a role unique to the Support Careers.

Now, I don't want them to be only Healing, but the fact that they do have Healing should limit their CC and their DPS.

Ranged and Melee DPS should have low CC as well. Imo, they should only have the minimum CC needed to fulfill their basic role, but not completely excel at their role. For example, I think Ranged CC should have a defensive Root to allow them to regain distance, but I'm completely opposed to Ranged DPS having Knockbacks. Knockbacks are a powerful offensive tool in their already potent arsenal. They can instantly remove opponents from combat, they immediately reestablish Range where Ranged DPS is King, and they are a direct counter to Melee DPS, which is supposed to be the weakness of Ranged DPS.

So, Knockbacks are a good example of a type of CC I think is excessive for the Ranged DPS Archetype while their Roots are a good example of the basic functionality needed for the Archetype.

Ranged should be relying on their Tanks to utilize Knockback to get Melee DPS away from them. It should be a part of dependancy between the Archetypes.

Melee DPS, imo, need access to a Snare. They also need some access to Disrupts and Interrupts. But their CC should be Single Target, definitely not AoE. Melee DPS should have enough CC to overcome most Ranged Careers (DPS and Support) in 1v1, but shouldn't have effects that disable multiple opponents at once.

Tanks should have the strongest CC and AoE CC, but it should be Melee based. They should also have to sacrifice CC for Damage if they want to do more DPS. The more CC they can access, the damage they can do. This is part of Archetype dependancy. They use CC to allow Healers to Heal and DPS to DPS.

Imo, anytime you give one Career or Archetype all the tools they need to excel at their role, you're damaging the overall balance and the interactions between the Archetypes.

[Animosity]

Great podcast

The In Flames tune in the start made it 2x good imo.

[Kuwarri]

Again, a good episode.
Although the sound quality was rather bad this time, especially Martin was awfully quiet.

I could hardly hear him.

[KuroiWashi]

Originally Posted by Kuwarri

I could hardly hear him.

I was having this issue too, and someone has an open mic issue, i had this problem in the other episodes, I think it's Frank mic, has a lot of static when he talks, and gets a lot of eco.

I like these podcast a lot, the info and discussion are really good. Would love to hear the Battle Stories segment, im half way through T3 and want to get to T4 soon, I really havent had any problem with cc, mainly because im still in T3.

[RootedOak]

Potential Questions for Future Podcast discussion:

1. Will the Choppa/Slayer actually perform as a "linebreaker" from what we understand them to be at this point?

2. Do you think the Marauder/Whitelion securely fill their role amoung the new Choppa/Slayer?

3. Will Lockpicking change the face of small team keep defenses? My answer is, Yes it will.

3a. Will this make Zerg vs. Zerg the only viable option?

4. ORvR Rallying Cry - This seems to me like the "zerg mechanic" as per the 1.2 patch notes. It is indeed only found in tiers 1 and 2. In fact, I don't mind zerging in tier 1 and 2. Maybe this ultra zerg function will produce zerg tactics. Like one half of a zerg bashing a T2 keep and the other half will be guarding the postern, or start roaming near the enemy warcamp.

5. We've seen the patch notes. We know BW/Sorcs have been in some trouble for a while now, will the resist dimishing returns and handful of bug fixes for the two classes bring them back in line as the highest burst damage ranged DPS?

As it is currently, my Engineers can frontload quite a bit of damage, not directly, but still in a short amount of time. Often times in a keep defense I'll see 4 or 5 deathblows pop on my screen at the same time after pulling out all my tricks. Let me say that BW can't do that right now.





To feedback:

CC - http://www.warhammeralliance.com/for...list+abilities

Check that thread out.

In terms of PvP MMO's to date, knockbacks are an exceptional accomplishment of WAR. Yes, it can be a "devestating" CC at times, yet it still gives the enemy a chance to escape, lose LoS, or simply charge right back at the caster.

It's the most tactical CC I've encountered in an MMO so far. As for the "uber" CC of other games, I feel we can compare that to mezzes and stuns. Yes, we have the stuns of WAR, we know them as disables, but they're few and restricted to only a few classes.

City Siege - I've got my own screenshots of the City Siege instance problem.

http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/8...alin000jq5.jpg

That's my Dark Crag Engineer (just rerolled from Skull Throne). Thats Order(63) vs. Dest(319). Not only does this show how unmotivated players are right now for defending, but it shows how nessicary the instance system is at the moment. Think if the Altdorf encounter was as open as a fortress. The realm caps would be so restrictive to Destruction that they'd all get angry and log out, then their capped overpopulation would be sitting on Order for the entire duration. Imagine if there was no cap like the old fortresses. 319 pushing down 63... That would cause them to siege the King without a doubt.

My thoughts for the long term: If Mythic can't produce a quality RvR City encounter out of what they have now, they ought to just scap the idea. Having little instances of 48/48, even if they prevented 0 vs 48 instances from being available. It completely eliminates the feeling of a "siege". Not to mention, the pathetic PQ objectives are completely capable of being completed by the Invaders by Turtling and sneaking NPC kills (which is what most destro do on Dark Crag btw)

I mean. When I tell my friends who don't play right now about the game. I specifically avoid the topic of City Siege. If they found out what it was like they'd never even think of joining. Since their mindset is, "Well if that's endgame, then No Way!" When really the "endgame" is Zone Control. Oddly enough, the Zone Control "endgame" leads to the City Siege.

I have read the interviews about Mythic altering the City Siege to be more PvP involved. I still don't see any way to change it unless they completely alter the PQ objectives. Then still, what happens when you finish the PQ? You do the PQ again! That doesn't even make sense!


Ah well, that's it from me right now. Good podcast. I'll listen to the next one for sure.

[PhoenixRed]

Originally Posted by KuroiWashi

I was having this issue too, and someone has an open mic issue, i had this problem in the other episodes, I think it's Frank mic, has a lot of static when he talks, and gets a lot of eco.

I like these podcast a lot, the info and discussion are really good. Would love to hear the Battle Stories segment, im half way through T3 and want to get to T4 soon, I really havent had any problem with cc, mainly because im still in T3.

I have a little sibilance on my audio, but typically it's not that bad. I realized afterwards I had my speakers on despite having my headphones in, meaning I was getting some feedback. I'll be talking to the other co-hosts to ensure we're all on the same page, but we typically all record at the same settings. We have varying equipment which may interfere with a consistent sound.

I dropped a re-upload of the podcast to deal with the problem - it's not perfect, but we will deal with it and get better as we progress through the episodes.

[kuno00]

Originally Posted by Anglakhel

Kuno00

I personally don't think Healers should a lot of CC. Their primary advantage in the Archetype interaction is their ability to Heal and provide support through Buffs. Healing is a role unique to the Support Careers.

Now, I don't want them to be only Healing, but the fact that they do have Healing should limit their CC and their DPS.

Ranged and Melee DPS should have low CC as well. Imo, they should only have the minimum CC needed to fulfill their basic role, but not completely excel at their role. For example, I think Ranged CC should have a defensive Root to allow them to regain distance, but I'm completely opposed to Ranged DPS having Knockbacks. Knockbacks are a powerful offensive tool in their already potent arsenal. They can instantly remove opponents from combat, they immediately reestablish Range where Ranged DPS is King, and they are a direct counter to Melee DPS, which is supposed to be the weakness of Ranged DPS.

So, Knockbacks are a good example of a type of CC I think is excessive for the Ranged DPS Archetype while their Roots are a good example of the basic functionality needed for the Archetype.

Ranged should be relying on their Tanks to utilize Knockback to get Melee DPS away from them. It should be a part of dependancy between the Archetypes.

Melee DPS, imo, need access to a Snare. They also need some access to Disrupts and Interrupts. But their CC should be Single Target, definitely not AoE. Melee DPS should have enough CC to overcome most Ranged Careers (DPS and Support) in 1v1, but shouldn't have effects that disable multiple opponents at once.

Tanks should have the strongest CC and AoE CC, but it should be Melee based. They should also have to sacrifice CC for Damage if they want to do more DPS. The more CC they can access, the damage they can do. This is part of Archetype dependancy. They use CC to allow Healers to Heal and DPS to DPS.

Imo, anytime you give one Career or Archetype all the tools they need to excel at their role, you're damaging the overall balance and the interactions between the Archetypes.

I could agree to that.

[RootedOak]

Originally Posted by Anglakhel

Imo, anytime you give one Career or Archetype all the tools they need to excel at their role, you're damaging the overall balance and the interactions between the Archetypes.

Do you mean, "all the tools they need to excel in every role"?

[cwang733t]

Good podcast and interesting ideas!

[kuno00]

Originally Posted by RootedOak

Do you mean, "all the tools they need to excel in every role"?

No I'm pretty sure he meant in "their role"

why? it's really simple.
If the healer could rid himself of other players to 100% 100% of the time, and heal, all mdps would lose their jobs.
They would have to start hitting the ranged dps...the ranged dps however also have the tools to protect themselves successfully at all times, and do ranged dmg...so they can't attack those.
If the tanks had enough survivability to surviva ANYTHING without a healer, why would they be needing healers in the first place.
If mdps had the ability to kill ANYTHING they want to in a matter of seconds...then we have kind of a problem because everything above isn't true anymore.

The thing is, if players don't have to rely on eachother anymore to survive, they're just not going to rely on each other anymore, because it usually rolls along as a necessity.
There's more than enough healers out there walking around with their Nose stuck in the air "I'm a g** male archmage and I only heal tanks that knock back anything that comes my way" now who the hell would they be healing if they had a KB ready at all times?

you guessed it, they would be g** male dmg archmages.