Games Day Baltmore - Thoughts on Land of the Dead and WAR

[PhoenixRed]

This write-up has been a long time coming, but we figured that you'd like to see some of things we were doing before submitting you to our wall of text. Hence, the videos were out first. Now, here's Warhammer Alliance's impressions, commited at last to wall-of-text form!

The Info

Land of the Dead is WAR's new content from Mythic that is due out this summer. There have been Live Events, teases, articles, and podcasts about the new area and dungeon, but a ton of detail came out at Games Day Baltimore this past weekend, and we were there to get a look at it.

Jeff Skalski and Gabe Amatangelo, two folks from Mythic who have been prominent in the planning, design, and development for Land of the Dead, gave us a presentation regarding everything Tomb Kings. Much of this stuff, if you've been following the coverage for the game, was known already, but the specifics are as follows.

Access to Land of the Dead will be controlled via a resource gathering system. Both realms will have a meter of resources that they will need to fill to gain access. Resources are turned in at a Quartermaster NPC, and are gotten from Zone Control and ORvR kills in the main campaign. When one realm has enough resources, they are given access to Land of the Dead via Flightmaster. Once this happens, resource gathering will temporarily stop (the working number is 30 minutes right now, subject to adjustment) and the winning realm will have access to the Land of the Dead unmolested. After this, the winning realm's resources are set back to 0 while the losing realm picks up where they left off. To help the zone flip a bit more, a handicap system will be introduced to allow realms on a constant losing side to meet the resource requirement faster.

The Land of the Dead itself features the main area, called Necropolis of Zandri, and the dungeon Tomb of the Vulture King. The Necropolis will have a total of 18 Public Quests (PQ's), each of which has a different dynamic. Gabe called it "like stages of a console game", and he wasn't kidding. During our hands-on gameplay, we had a chance to play two of these PQ's. One involved killing Carrions and their cursed, undead eggs, with the Carrions carrying you to places high on the cliffs that made you have to jump properly to accomplish the PQ goal. The other PQ was one in which we killed scarabs, ran down to seal sarcophagi in separate mustaba-like structures, and then fought a boss that turned into mist in an attempt to separate and divide the group.

Aside from the usual PQ rewards, the Land of the Dead PQ's will award glyphs. Having a certain combination of glyphs garnered from the different PQ's will give you access to one of the four new lairs in the zone, filled with monsters and loot to be had.

The Tomb of the Vulture King features seven PQ's and eight boss encounters, and the loot gotten from it is supposed to be on par with Lost Vale. One of the additions to this dungeon is environmental hazards in the form of traps. Swinging pendulum blades, shooting arrows, and lethal insects are just some of the things players will have to get through in order to progress through the dungeon. The traps introduce an action RPG element to the dungeon crawl, making players have to think on their feet and pay more attention than they might have been used to in WAR's previous dungeons. Thankfully, for those who might not be as skilled, traps will only require part of a group to be successful at them in order to disarm them for others.

We had the opportunity to face off against two of the bosses in the Tomb as well. Frontal cleaves, hard charging giants, and ever-changing modes typified these encounters, introducing more elements beyond your usual "tank and spank" routine. Once again, players will have to be quick to react to different mechanics and elements that haven't been present in WAR's previous dungeons.

All of this PvE stuff is all well and good, but what about RvR? Aside from the struggle over zone control, a "Purge" element was introduced into the Land of the Dead zone. When the zone flips control, players on the controlling realm will not only be able to enter the zone, but also invade another realm's instance, creating a 6 v 6 encounter within that instance. Defending players currently in the instance will receive a goal to survive for a certain amount of time while invading players will be tasked with killing the defenders. What's more, the elements of the dungeon can be used as a weapon against enemies. Traps previously passed can be reset, routes can be cut off so players have to detour through trash, and overall the dungeon becomes one big battlezone. This creates choices players will have to make, especially for defenders who, because they do not control the zone, cannot respawn in the Land of the Dead if they aren't raised by a healer. Encouraging conflict in RvR are a system wherein PQ's and bosses will not drop loot if players from both realms are in the area (to avoid cross-realming) and rewards, loot, and titles available only to those who choose to RvR against other players. All in all, the new dynamic creates a dungeon that is both PvE and RvR-themed, with a bit of small-team conflict thrown in.

Land of the Dead, with all these new elements, seeks to change the landscape of WAR's various systems and evolve them to the next level with new dynamics, choices, and elements.

[PhoenixRed]

The Praise

The introduction of action RPG elements into this new content is perhaps one of the larger positives I would give Land of the Dead. It's been said of WAR's PvE encounters that they are an afterthought in the midst of the RvR elements that have been introduced since the game was first picked up by Mythic. With the exception of a couple encounters, WAR's PvE seemed stale and straightforward.

The introduction of the Indiana Jones-like traps and the boss encounters which will require a bit of thought and good action to perform is very helpful to making the entire experience enjoyable and fun. Obviously, a balance needs to be struck between MMO elements and action RPG elements, with the traditional MMO ideas carrying the bulk of what we see in Land of the Dead. But having to avoid and sidestep mist, jumping to reach eggs on high cliffs, and bosses that possess things that make you think go a long way towards keeping things fresh and entertaining. It's a welcome change that I think should be in more of the dungeon encounters going forward.

The other major positive is the obvious RvR element. Those who played DAoC fondly remember the things done in Darkness Falls, Mythic's last RvR-themed dungeon. The most exciting element of DF was the element of the unknown. Were you going to round a corner and find enemies? What kind of choices did you have to make in order to survive? Would you risk ceding the dungeon to the enemy by pushing through the content or would you turn and face them in a battle for control? These were the elements that made DF so great in DAoC and to see them in WAR is a heartening experience.

If done right, Tomb of the Vulture King will be the next evolution of that system and it will bring an element to dungeon crawls that people will sit up and take notice for. Having measures already in place to avoid exploiting content, taking advantage of the system, and also allowing for a balanced experience for both realms through handicap and purge systems will be great for the game and inject new life into it. All the elements of action and surprise in the encounters for the dungeons, even after they are learned and farmed, will still have a dynamic element due to the introduction of other players into the mix.

The Criticism

All of this, however, doesn't mean that there aren't things, questions, or other elements that will need addressing before or that failing, right after the content comes out. Perhaps the largest question mark on the new content is how the existing engine will be able to handle the various things that are happening. We've seen with the introduction of 1.2.1 that responsiveness, stability, and client code might not be as far along as we thought. When asked about tech, we were assured that there is new tech and new code in place to try to avoid the kinds of issues that have plagued players in fortress sieges and even in dungeons.

There is, however, a big question mark in terms of being able to handle such activity. Imagine lagging into a trap when you know you've avoided it, or not having a trap trigger when you need it to cut off the enemy. Or perhaps when you will enter into conflict with an enemy and you either all crash, some crash, or worse yet, the current encounter or boss you are on bugs out, resulting in a wipe and the defenders left empty-handed as they spawn back in their capital city. If stability isn't addressed properly, the implementation of Land of the Dead could be a disaster, causing people to log off in frustration or even unsubscribe. Not only does Mythic have to do everything they can during the testing cycle to simulate stress-test-like situations, but they need to be able to respond to the inevitable chaos of patch and implementation day. If they don't, it could be very demoralizing to WAR's subscribers.

The other question involves the "path of least resistance" playstyle that due to the widening market, some MMO players tend to embrace. WAR took a bit of a punch to the gut with regards to their RvR system because there were some players who, instead of getting into conflict with enemies, took undefended forts, keeps, and battlefield objectives. The incentive for participating in RvR was only as good as the loot that was gotten from it and "RvE" was quite apparent in the mindsets of some people.

While Mythic has made leaps and bounds in terms of trying to minimize this sort of thinking, with Land of the Dead they will have to be conscious of this as well. When I asked about what kinds of incentives players will have to RvR, and that players might choose to PvE dungeon crawl instead of engaging in RvR player conflict, I wasn't quite sure I got a satisfactory answer. There's a worry that, given the choice to start an empty instance or invade an enemy one, that most "path of least resistance" players will choose not to participate in a purge at all, and that they won't pursue player conflict for fear of interfering with "phat lewtz" from the PvE portion of the dungeon. I did not hear much about the incentive for players to RvR with one another in this zone, but I hope that they are substantial and comparable to reaping the benefits of the dungeons, PQ's, and lairs. If they aren't, what you might get is a constantly flipping zone with players afraid to exit their warcamp for fear of dying if they don't control it, coming out only to rush to the nearest unoccupied area or instance. I am all for player choice, but RvR, in my opinion, should be the priority in a PvP-focused game.

The Verdict

While there are many question marks and things that need to be shaken out before and after this content goes live, you can basically color me "cautiously optimistic" about this stuff. It was great to put my hands on the content and actually play it, because all the podcasts and hype and presentations in the world can't replace actually sitting down and playing through some of it to understand how everything works. I had an immense amount of fun playing with people and with Mythic and checking out all the new things they have to offer with Land of the Dead.

Because all MMOs are at heart a grind towards the further development of your character, whether that is through PvE or PvP content, the obligation of the developer is to craft and design an environment, instance, encounter, or other system that masks that, makes it engaging, and makes it easy to participate in and contribute to. Land of the Dead is a big step in the right direction for Mythic to take in terms of taking their system to the next level. You can see the progression and building they have done on what they already have in place, and while you know there are going to be the usual problems, naysayers, and doomcallers, the effort and passion put into this expansion can't be taken away, and it shows. Such investment and work put into this project is, if anything, a sign that the game is in fact not in danger of dying in a fire anytime soon, and that while initial expectations have arguably not been met, that this content could be a great thing for the state of the game and help stabilize its subscriber base. But it also could be a rough ride over the next few months if it isn't, so whichever way you feel about the game, this is a crucial moment in the game's development.

If you're out there, and you've wanted something interesting and new for WAR, you're going to get it with Land of the Dead. If you're looking for bugs to be ironed out and things that didn't work to be fixed, you should check out Land of the Dead as the systems introduced are things which try to learn from the mistakes from the past. And if you're currently unsubbed and reading this, I would wait til Land of the Dead is implemented, let the bugs and chaos work itself out over a couple weeks, then give it a try. It's at least worth a look and a try, and will engage you pretty well. Just watch out for that Locust swarm.

[PhoenixRed]

What Else is Going On?

It's no surprise that while Land of the Dead stole the spotlight at Games Day Baltimore, that there are players that are curious about the things that Mythic is doing in the existing systems in their ongoing effort to smash bugs, fix exploits, and tweak things to make the main game better.

From Baltimore, through various interviews, we can glean plenty of information about the game proper. For instance, the largest ticket item is the revision of the ward system. Jeff and Gabe mentioned this during their presentation, but the ward system has been a pain point for many players and they are now looking to revise it into a sigil system. The biggest change is that wards will no longer be attached to armor set pieces. Instead, they will be recorded and kept in the Tome of Knowledge, and multiple wards will make sigils which will provide you with what the ward armor currently gives players. It will also allow players to mix and match their armor pieces, to min-max to their heart's content without worrying about losing a ward due to an equipment change.

Dungeon lockouts were another thing that was addressed. In the near future, players will be able to invite others who have no progression into their dungeon instance. This will fix a large player concern about having a dungeon run disrupted because of people who cannot make it on a particular night.

Robert Mull, Community Relations Director, recently returned from a trip to Dublin, where he talked with GOA about improving the treatment and service given to the EU playerbase. While specific timelines were not given, there is going to be a re-doubling of effort to ensure EU players are getting the attention they deserve, with promo codes being the first item of the list to address.

Nate Levy of Combat and Careers talked a little bit about 1.3, where he hinted that "major" changes were coming. If it was anything like 1.2, expect that all classes are going to get at least some things done to them, while others who have not previously had attention placed on them will get a closer look under the microscope.

Jeff Skalski mentioned that right now the RvR teams are working on that second ramp for keeps and fortresses that was last seen at New York Comic Con. They know the players are looking out for it and hopefully we'll see some news about it soon.

Mark Davis dropped a hint that Reikland Factory might be making a return, and that there are new elements coming up in the next Tomb Kings lead-up that he thinks players will probably enjoy.

Most of the developers that I asked were very quick to point out that while they've spent a lot of effort promoting Land of the Dead, that existing bugs and issues were still high priority on Mythic's list to keep working on. While some would argue that allocation of more resources to existing issues might result in a better game experience, Mythic stated on various occasions that development teams are made up of individuals with varying talents, and that putting them on tasks they might not be suited to deal with would do more harm than good. Every time I brought that question up, whether that was on camera or off camera, I was assured that Mythic was assigning the resources necessary and working practically around the clock to deal with the recent issues that players have had to deal with lately, since 1.2.1.

Whether or not you choose to agree with Mythic's argument, is up to you, the community. But the one thing that I can say with definitive confidence is that the guys and gals at Mythic love their game, have passion about it, and care about their community and players like you and I. If there was one consistent that I got from the weekend, it's that Mythic's personable, human nature is one of their greatest advantages, even if they take hits for it from time to time. The things that they've done, how they've tried to listen to players, and of course, the generous invitation of a fansite to stand among the major MMO sites out there to experience the new content and listen to your questions and concerns is huge. you can criticize Mythic for a lot of things, but what you can't really take them to task for, at least in my opinion, is a lack of care or attention for their game or its players.

I'm going to keep writing both productive praise and constructive criticism of Mythic's game, because they need both in order to remain viable. After seeing all of this and giving you all fodder for much discussion over the next few weeks, I encourage you to do the same. Give them your kudos, take them to task with your criticism, but always be productive. After all, they're listening.

Thanks to Andy Belford, Robert Mull, Jordan Rosenbloom, Eric Carroll, and the rest of the guys at Mythic for the opportunity to give Warhammer Alliance and all the WAR fans a glimpse into what they've got coming for us.

[Zubu]

Good stuff.

[Eske Kjaer]

Interesting to see them concerned about offering players the chance to min/max stats by removing wards from gear, but at the same time implementing a stat capping system.

If the idea is to provide the most customizable experience with regards to stat adjustment, why limit the number of points someone can cram into one stat? If I want to stack all my strength up to 1300, I'm going to pay the price in other areas, but with the stat cap I suffer even more by not even getting all of the strength I stack.

That minor problem aside the zone looks and sounds great, I'm excited to see how the new set and weapons play out, and how good they are.

[Pakanohida]

All of this PvE stuff is all well and good, but what about RvR? Aside from the struggle over zone control, a "Purge" element was introduced into the Land of the Dead zone. When the zone flips control, players on the controlling realm will not only be able to enter the zone, but also invade another realm's instance, creating a 6 v 6 encounter within that instance. Defending players currently in the instance will receive a goal to survive for a certain amount of time while invading players will be tasked with killing the defenders. What's more, the elements of the dungeon can be used as a weapon against enemies. Traps previously passed can be reset, routes can be cut off so players have to detour through trash, and overall the dungeon becomes one big battlezone. This creates choices players will have to make, especially for defenders who, because they do not control the zone, cannot respawn in the Land of the Dead if they aren't raised by a healer. Encouraging conflict in RvR are a system wherein PQ's and bosses will not drop loot if players from both realms are in the area (to avoid cross-realming) and rewards, loot, and titles available only to those who choose to RvR against other players. All in all, the new dynamic creates a dungeon that is both PvE and RvR-themed, with a bit of small-team conflict thrown in.

6v6? How incredibly disappointing. The War community asked for a Darkness Falls style dungeon, and we get this? I appreciate all the hard work, I really do, but this right here is not in any way shape or form what we (DAoC players) asked for.

Granted there is the rush when invading to purge, that goes with both styles of dungeons, and we can be res'd inside, but I was looking forward to the large scale ORVR here, as I am sure many other people were as well. Not to mention warbands logging back into the zone well after Destro has it cannot be done now, again, highly disappointing.

I was looking forward to fighting Destro while on a Hero level boss... akin to fighting at "Princes" verse the opposing faction when they take it. It made the bosses just that much harder, just that much more fun, just that much more... well, everything.

The MMO dev's of the last 4 or 5 years has been instancing everything under the sun light source in the skybox. What happened to really earning gear? It's all just "farming" now with these instances, and with the dynamic a lot of people were hoping for now gone... it's just like another zone, with it's own domination, with another dungeon. Woo.

I will recant most of what I said about the RvR if I am wrong, it is possible that I am, but 6v6 instances when people were looking forward to Orvr is just, well, saddening.

[Cathen]

Nice synopsis...sums up just about everything I got from the videos.


Btw, Great job on the Q&A Phoenix....nice variety of questions.

Kudos!

[PhoenixRed]

Originally Posted by Pakanohida

6v6? How incredibly disappointing. The War community asked for a Darkness Falls style dungeon, and we get this? I appreciate all the hard work, I really do, but this right here is not in any way shape or form what we (DAoC players) asked for.

This was based upon one answer I got from Jeff during his interview regarding RvR. This could change, or could be different, because Gabe stated that the final boss encounter in Tomb of the Vulture King is balanced for "24 players" with at least 100 involving an "extra stage". So we got a bit of both answers.

We'll have to see how it shakes out, but there may be a mix of small combat and large scale combat in the dungeon itself with the purge system.

[Kradath]

If my side gets into the Land of the Dead and I'm deciding to purge an instance to wipe the other faction, am I able to pick up where the other side was in the dungeon? This could help promoting the purge as the other side made the dirty work, we ripped them off and continue where they left of.

[PhoenixRed]

Originally Posted by Kradath

If my side gets into the Land of the Dead and I'm deciding to purge an instance to wipe the other faction, am I able to pick up where the other side was in the dungeon? This could help promoting the purge as the other side made the dirty work, we ripped them off and continue where they left of.

That was also an uncertainty. Because we've seen trash respawn in other dungeons I would assume yes, but I could be wrong.

One thing they did mention was hopefully making respawning in the dungeon easier so you don't have to run through trash to get back to your group if you cannot be rezzed.

[Azhul]

Having a zerg interrupt a party`s boss fight doesn`t sound like fun to me, and I think it would drive a lot PvE players away from the game.

Some people HATE PvP, and making them do it will just encourage them to quit.

[Tyranny]

Originally Posted by Azhul

Having a zerg interrupt a party`s boss fight doesn`t sound like fun to me, and I think it would drive a lot PvE players away from the game.

Some people HATE PvP, and making them do it will just encourage them to quit.

Time and time again....this is a PVP GAME!!!!!!!!

If they don't like PvP, this was the WRONG MMO for them to pickup. Mythic shouldn't have to cater to the PvE crowd when the game they designed has plenty of both. However, they shouldn't handicap the PvP element for the PvEers just for the sake of making everyone happy. There just might come a certain point where the hardcore PvEers can't progress with gear/items etc. Thats the price they may have to pay for not participating in what the game was intended for.

Where did this "everybody wins" mentality come from? There are losers and then there are winners. Losing should be your main incentive to organize better and prepare better and beat the living snot out of the other side. To me, that is what this game is all about. Just my opinion and I know it sounds harsh, but this game already suffers enough because of too many carebears.

That's my 2brass on the matter.

[Gaugamela]

All of this PvE stuff is all well and good, but what about RvR? Aside from the struggle over zone control, a "Purge" element was introduced into the Land of the Dead zone. When the zone flips control, players on the controlling realm will not only be able to enter the zone, but also invade another realm's instance, creating a 6 v 6 encounter within that instance.

I hope there are instances that allow for 24vs24 action...
And to the person above me:RvR should mix PvE with PvP.
I liked your criticism. It's spot on.

One of my fears is that giving the attacking faction the option to choose an empty instance of a dungeon instead of a occupied instance by the opposing side will lead to mostly PvE.
The attacking faction should be forced to purge the other faction of a dungeon before it can open up "clean" instances. Remember the problems in city sieges because players could pick the instance and avoided the opponents, picking instead empty instances? They are doing the same mistake here.
Or else i hope the incentives for taking a occupied instance are HUGE compared to an empty instance. Maybe give a Gold bag and a Blue Bag by taking an occupied instance or an extra chest when finishing the purge?

I also feel that you should have mentioned that this zone can probably act as a way to balance the War progression in the rest of the game since by opening up the LotD area the faction that is doing better in Tier 4 progression will probably loose a big portion of their attacking RvR population helping the underpopulated side to take back several regions and maybe even opening up the capital city of the other side since the populations will be more balanced.

Another good thing that can come from this is that this zone will contribute to spread out the population a bit more when open which will hopefully lead to less server issues caused by an excess of population in just one spot.

Right now this area has a lot of potential to greatly improve the game or, in the worst case scenario to leave it practically unchanged (and in this case i believe many people will unsub).

[Tyranny]

Originally Posted by Gaugamela

I hope there are instances that allow for 24vs24 action...
And to the person above me:RvR should mix PvE with PvP.

It already does. However a large amount of PvE players tend to avoid participating in the PvP content. Which when they do, makes them horrible during scenarios or becomes a detrimental cog in the oRvR engine. For BOTH sides.

We all know these guys, they're the ones that continue to beat on the biggest target they can find meanwhile that target is just kicking them around because it has 3x healers back behind him somewhere keeping him alive.

[Gaugamela]

Originally Posted by Tyranny

It already does. However a large amount of PvE players tend to avoid participating in the PvP content. Which when they do, makes them horrible during scenarios or becomes a detrimental cog in the oRvR engine. For BOTH sides.

We all know these guys, they're the ones that continue to beat on the biggest target they can find meanwhile that target is just kicking them around because it has 3x healers back behind him somewhere keeping him alive.

I agree with you.