Warhammer Alliance Podcast Episode 11: A Spoken Tome of Post-Pre-Show Rage

[PhoenixRed]

It's been a while! Now fully recovered from Baltimore, we've got a fresh episode right off the Memorial Day grill for you!

Your hosts for this podcast are: Frank, Martin, Kristen, and 4th slot guest host Greg Moran from Tome of Knowledge.

Introduction (5 minutes)

• Intros via poll question: "What's the last TV show you watched?", featuring Joss Whedon.
• New host introduction

Dev Post Blender (15 minutes)

• Featuring 1.3 Highlights

Foresight-Hindsight (12 minutes)

• Featuring Paul's Career Video of the Disciple of Khaine

Community Sound Off (13 ninutes)

• Featuring: Tanking, Land of the Dead Stability, and Cheating - Thanks to Negatempest, Talc, and samwise75

Total length: 46:01 minutes

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[Azhul]

Another good show, guys.

Agree about the inventory upgrade. This is one area where the game is very good and this makes it even better. Also the auto roll feature. I suggested on the PTS to make work even when soloing so one could avoid grey trash when autolooting.

The 'Tome of knowledge' link is not working for me.

[PhoenixRed]

Originally Posted by Azhul

Another good show, guys.

Agree about the inventory upgrade. This is one area where the game is very good and this makes it even better. Also the auto roll feature. I suggested on the PTS to make work even when soloing so one could avoid grey trash when autolooting.

The 'Tome of knowledge' link is not working for me.

It is now. Thanks!

[minurk]

there is an extra " on the hyperlink to tome of knowledge

already fixed..

[Azhul]

Ok, this is very early, but I'd like you to ask your group whether they think Mythic should just make the 'mirror' classes true functional copies of each other. This would mean half as much work balancing the classes and would eliminate the great majority of complaints in that area. I support such a change (even though it would require redesign of some pairings such as SW/SH and Marauder/WL. Mythic should have given SW the pet, rather than WL (I believe that pet is against the lore, anyway).

I agree with you that the power changes regarding AoE versus single target should not be going in without being done for all classes at the same time. I agree with Martin that weaker classes (such as Magus) should not be cut the same amount as the stronger and just wait until they are rebalanced later. I think it will drive some Magi out of the game if they feel even more deprived.

Getting another question in for the next cast:
Should Mythic take city sieges offline for a while for redesign once LotD is running smoothly?

[Ymrar]

Originally Posted by Azhul

Getting another question in for the next cast:
Should Mythic take city sieges offline for a while for redesign once LotD is running smoothly?

They don't need to take city siege offline. They already have two pairings they can work the changes on.
They have once already stated that they might introduce new capital pair with taking the current off and then fixing and improving cities in a "continuous" cycle.
I think that would be best, for at least until all of them are in and are solid. Then one glorious day in 2012 they will all be ingame at the same time and the first pay-for-expansion can brake them good and proper...

[rollen]

Originally Posted by Azhul

Ok, this is very early, but I'd like you to ask your group whether they think Mythic should just make the 'mirror' classes true functional copies of each other. This would mean half as much work balancing the classes and would eliminate the great majority of complaints in that area. I support such a change (even though it would require redesign of some pairings such as SW/SH and Marauder/WL. Mythic should have given SW the pet, rather than WL (I believe that pet is against the lore, anyway).

That's a bad idea.... that's basically saying whats the point of even bothering making race stricted classes? It'll just be another typical MMOG like WoW where you can play a Warrior as a gnome and a caster as a orc.... would make the game lose it's pazaazz and its unique 12 class system because then Maruaders will get lions or a pet of some kind a engineer will have a mechinical squig and a squig herder will have turrets.... really really bad idea.. >_> i would quit the game if that were to come true... I don't mind all the attention on PvE and I dont mind all the changes to classes till its just right. but to have classes made exactly the same as the other is just .... yeah no comment...that's not what warhammer is about or atleast thats not what it used to be about >_>


BTW, personally I don't think that there will ever be a moment where there is never gonna be a balance between all classes. In everyone's mind there will be a over powered class like the easiest one to learn and do damage with vs the difficult ones to build but in the long run they do better then the easy ones. What I believe Mythic should be doing is look at all the classes that are not doing well and help them get a bump and not really nerf people unless needed but I doubt they aren't looking at the mirror classes and just going all nilly willy.

it's all common sense =/ if you've thought about it already they have as well. Now if theres a unique "omg" moment kind of idea i think then yes its worth of crying about to mythic but I think people aren't giving mythic much credit such as calling them "lazy"

I don't know if its me but it seems kristin is never satisfied with anything. Like the land of the dead or the Ward system. she seems very negative about everything or at least she rubs off that way to me. Although she may have some valid things to be upset about its just the way she delivers it that sounds ungratefull.

[Azhul]

I'm not saying open up the classes to every race.

It would be 12 IF the mirrors were exact copies. I don't believe anyone finds shaman and AM different enough (gameplay wise, rather than appearance and faction) to play now. I have a T3 AM and a T2 shammy and aside from the way they look and which side they fight for, they aren't very different to play. I assume my shammy will get its group heal at L20, just like my AM did. Then I will be spamming that just like my AM does.

Originally Posted by rollen

it's all common sense =/ if you've thought about it already they have as well. Now if theres a unique "omg" moment kind of idea i think then yes its worth of crying about to mythic but I think people aren't giving mythic much credit such as calling them "lazy"

It doesn't have to be motivated by laziness. Pride would be sufficient to not admit that 24 classes was a mistake, and 12 would be much easier to balance.

Can you even imagine if they had stuck with 256 classes?

[rollen]

Originally Posted by Azhul

I'm not saying open up the classes to every race.

It would be 12 IF the mirrors were exact copies. I don't believe anyone finds shaman and AM different enough (gameplay wise, rather than appearance and faction) to play now. I have a T3 AM and a T2 shammy and aside from the way they look and which side they fight for, they aren't very different to play. I assume my shammy will get its group heal at L20, just like my AM did. Then I will be spamming that just like my AM does.


It doesn't have to be motivated by laziness. Pride would be sufficient to not admit that 24 classes was a mistake, and 12 would be much easier to balance.

Can you even imagine if they had stuck with 256 classes?

You gotta admit that for 24 classes the balance in this game isnt as bad as games with just 6 or less. I've played plenty of games where it's just your traditional Warrior, Bowman and Caster and theres always a over powered class whether it be the over powered hulk Warrior, or the never die Healer or the DoT+giant crits mage. I've never seen a game where they've come close to balancing just 3 classes other then the well polished mainstream mmorpgs that have been out for years and have worked on there classes since day one. I'm not saying the classes of WAR are perfect I'm just saying they are not so over balanced that they need to be turned to cookie cutters of each other. cause that's basically what your looking to happen is people just making cookie cutters.

I understand that some classes like you mentioned the Shammy and AM + WP and DoK are not to different from each other which is boring and not very diverse and I'm sure you don't enjoy that because I know you would want some crazy skills that a gobo would use like a giant stomping foot or some whacky skill that goblins are known for. but then you got unique classes apart from their mirrors that actually have diversity between them that would basically lose that diversity. I don't think we should go backwards and make things cookie cutters I think we should go forward and look at the classes and add abilities that improve the gameplay and unique play style of the game.

when I decided to play where it was when I wanted to finally play a game that was hard and took time to become skilled and thats how it was being advertised at the time I found it that it was a game where items and gear were the last thing you worried about and skill was the first.

[Quiksilva]

WAP 11 does not show up in itunes store yet, for me... I have downloaded directly so no biggie, but just thought you should know

[PhoenixRed]

Originally Posted by Quiksilva

WAP 11 does not show up in itunes store yet, for me... I have downloaded directly so no biggie, but just thought you should know

That's odd, my itunes feed updated. I'll look into it. Thanks!

[Amriel]

Originally Posted by rollen

I don't know if its me but it seems kristin is never satisfied with anything. Like the land of the dead or the Ward system. she seems very negative about everything or at least she rubs off that way to me. Although she may have some valid things to be upset about its just the way she delivers it that sounds ungratefull.

No, I would agree that I never seem satisfied. I think a portion of that is seeing how much WAR has to offer, and seeing the company failing to deliver. It's especially frustrating as a DAoC veteran: They had elements that worked that they should have stuck with for WAR. Relics, for instance, worked much better than city takes-- Even with a relic gone, you could still function and RvR. AoE vs Single-Target damage is another example of something that worked; crowd control was frustrating, but it discouraged zerging too, and the blanket CC made small groups very effective. Yes, smaller groups are effective in WAR too, but only to a point.

I tend to focus on the big things in patches, like C&C rather than UI improvements. Little things are fantastic-- they make doing smaller tasks more effecient and overall streamline the basic features of the game-- but they are not the things subscribers will continue paying for if the cores are broken (IE. Combat mechanics, career balancing, etc.).

I apologize for coming across as a negative Nancy, but good or bad, I will state my opinion without sugar-coating it.


-Am

[Kaydos]

Originally Posted by rollen

That's a bad idea.... that's basically saying whats the point of even bothering making race stricted classes? It'll just be another typical MMOG like WoW where you can play a Warrior as a gnome and a caster as a orc.... would make the game lose it's pazaazz and its unique 12 class system because then Maruaders will get lions or a pet of some kind a engineer will have a mechinical squig and a squig herder will have turrets.... really really bad idea.. >_> i would quit the game if that were to come true... I don't mind all the attention on PvE and I dont mind all the changes to classes till its just right. but to have classes made exactly the same as the other is just .... yeah no comment...that's not what warhammer is about or atleast thats not what it used to be about >_>

Um... Engineer = Magus, not Squig Herder.... and magus already have 'turrets'. Also I think the general idea would be the WL would lose the pet and have the same mechanic as the Marauder (stealing the SW stances... but for melee), and Shadow Warriors would gain a pet making them a perfect mirror of SH.

Edit: the other big problems of making perfect mirrors would be engi versus magus (one is magic one is ballistics), and the elemental alignment of some classes (ie BW = ele/corp and sorc = spi/corp)

[Rer]

It wasn't long enough (unlike this post, sorry for the wall of text in advance). I know that sounds really dumb, but the subjects you guys were discussing couldn't have been more accurate, especially the Magus changes (biased I know since I'm currently rolling a Magus on Volkmar).

That aside however, I really was unimpressed with Mythic's "balancing" patch notes. Like you guys said, its a blanket. It isn't balancing at all, its just uber nerfing of one thing (AoE) which to SOME degree was understandable and then uber buffing of another (MDPS) which is also understandable to SOME degree. The problem is that, and I'm ripping this off of a forum post so sorry to the original user, Mythic is taking a sledge hammer to an issue that requires a scapel.

You can't just nerf AoE all around and call it balanced... because it isn't, at all. Why? Because classes like the Magus are not going to be able to put up good single target numbers like the Bright Wizard/Sorc. I mean for crying out loud I already have 5-6 AoE DoTs and I'm only Rank 30. You can't expect me to be okay with a radius decrease when Bright Wizard/Sorc aren't going to be really hurt by this (I assure you they will face melt people in single target).

I'm not asking for a nerf to them, because them doing good single target damage seems to fit them perfectly in my opinion. I'm just asking for Mythic to take things on a class by class basis. The most important thing, to me, is that instead of just comparing them to their mirrors, which does need to be done... the IB/BG comparison is just sad these days, Mythic needs to look objectively at the game as a whole. Each class should have their niche. In my honest opinion, AoE DoTs is what Engies/Magus do best, so why force us into a more single target niche when that clearly isn't where we shine?

As to the ******** addon discussion, its a little late for Mythic to put out a notice at this point. We already all know its being dealt with. HOWEVER, should future issues arise I would HIGHLY suggest that Mythic release a notice. Word is going to spread whether you like it or not, and it looks MUCH better when the notice is coming from someone official and we know they are dealing with it. (Not to be hating on WARP, love those guys)

On a much more positive note, 1.3 does have some GREAT things coming with it. One of the things you guys didn't mention is the automail of bags should you not be able to loot them in time. I made a thread about that a long time ago, and it really makes me happy to see that they are finally implementing that. (Nothing hurts more than losing a gold bag due to lag/getting owned)

In conclusion, another great podcast. I would write more, especially about tanks, but I feel this is enough for now. Kudos to WHA as always and I truly hope that Mythic takes feedback like this seriously because currently I'm not looking forward to 1.3s "balancing act".

[Gerd]

Have to agree with the Canadian when he said they're just "wiping the slate clean."

When this doesn't work out they'll probably just try to wipe the slate again and it will probably be repeated ad infinitum. The DoK melee heal range is just one instance of them not understanding that you can't just blanket nerf all aoe.

Seems like they did the same (try to wipe the slate) when (1.2?) they made all the attacks that were supposed to be doing magic damage actually be mitigated by resists.