The WAH, 6/21/09 - An RvR Carrot for WAR Rabbits

[PhoenixRed]

It might seem like the last thing that I'd want to bring in for an analogy for one of our columns is rabbits and bunnies, especially when you consider the fact that rabbits are perhaps the furthest thing from typifying players that there is. You'd be surprised at how much in common MMO players have with rabbits, however.

I have a couple rabbits at home. They play in a little playpen like area we've set up for them in our home. For those who aren't knowledgeable, rabbits comes in many breeds and also many personalities. They can be docile, friendly, happy, angry, grumpy, or rebellious. They typically show appreciation and anger with highly visible displays, whether that is to hop around cheerfully, thump the ground like their pouting, or in the most extreme of cases, simply chew and poop their way to getting what they want.

If there's a consistency about rabbits, however, it's they all enjoy eating. What they want to eat varies, but when you're getting them to try something new, you have to provide a good incentive for them to do it. I like to mix in food that they like with food that they aren't familiar with, but there are plenty of ways to get them to do it, from changing feeding times, to dangling toys, to other methods.

MMO players are much the same way. They require care and feeding, they sometimes need attention, and they provide communication to developers in varied, and sometimes interesting, ways. They also like to eat, whether that is devouring content, mechanics, class balance, whatever is put in front of them, especially if they are whole systems that serve as the core of the game in question.

So we return from what seemed to be an odd analogy to one that everyone likes to use all the time - the "carrot on a stick", the incentive to participate in what is desired, the thing that motivates people towards a common goal. Rabbits respond well to incentives to eating, and so do MMO players. MMO veterans know that whether it is personal achievement, or gear, or character development, an MMO requires a carrot in order for players to use and ultimately enjoy the system.

WAR, I think, needs a bit of an improvement in the carrot they are currently dangling in front of the rabbit nursery. WAR's carrot for players is the RvR system, and the rewards it offers. While other games have made attempts at providing benefits to participating in a player vs. player based mechanic, Mythic is perhaps the first to offer some interesting things, from experience through players kills and player vs. player objectives, to a separate experience system for leveling, i.e. the renown system, to RvR statues in capital cities for those who accomplish the highest levels of RvR excellence. Drops from players which contribute towards better RvR-focused rewards as well as rewards for participating in RvR goals such as fortress and keep sieges are also other highlights.

In the end, however, are renown ranks and statues and tome unlocks enough to keep players participating in RvR? I'm not too sure.

Let's look at the comparison to games that are PvE based. There's dungeons, or gear improvements, or the next level of content to make players go after the endgame in those games. There's a desire to not only look unique but feel unique through being parts of groups that regularly succeed in achieving PvE-based goals.

What about games that are PvP-based? These plant their flag in the idea that there are real consequences to participating, whether it is losing a zone, getting yourself not only killed but looted, or other such things. These are designed to create high risk but also high benefit for diving in.

WAR's RvR incentive was built primarily around the idea of "realm pride". Pre-release videos, quotes, and the answer to "why should I participate" were (and possibly still are) answered with a clarion call of "it's fun to smash each other in the face all day long" and "you will want to defend your city or your fortress because it is your city or fortress". I won't bore you with a re-tread, but you can simply read why I think realm pride isn't sufficient and is not inspired in WAR currently. With pride not being sufficient, coupled with the current stability and mechanics issues with Tier 4 endgame, it's no wonder that WAR may be having trouble retaining players once they reach the level cap. The carrot is there, but it isn't the type of food players may want to eat. City sieges are pushed, but underpopulated realms may sometimes be demoralized to the point of not defending. Raising renown rank for shots at wearing gear that seems ages away doesn't seem appealing, either.

Incremental improvements to RvR incentives have been made to help this issue, from providing actual benefits to keep defense, tweaking the city instance system to avoid "RvE" type playstyles, and introducing medallions and ordinance into player kill drops. These are the kinds of things that need to be done, but I'm really feeling like a huge push towards getting people to eat that RvR carrot is needed.

Introducing tangible rewards for climbing the renown system and participating in constant RvR might be one way to improve things - for example, a system wherein killing enemies or successfully defending or attacking drops pieces that can be assembled to form gear, not just "bought" through medallions. Higher renown ranks means you have an easier time gathering said pieces, but much like the medallion system now, you have a chance of dropping significant or rare pieces for lower renown ranked players to roll over. Increasing the number of RvR-focused gear and achievements would help as waell. Actual benefits for owning, controlling, or taking RvR zones like faster experience gain buffs, persistent stat increases, and the like. Conversely, you could play with the idea of creating negative impact for not having a zone locked - slower experience, lesser stats. As long as the consequences weren't terribly debilitating these would be great ways to create constant RvR conflict.

Land of the Dead, with its invadeable instances and zone flipping control system, may work to help introduce some of this incentive, but flaws in the system, such as only providing tome unlocks and titles for invading an instance, mean that the lack of carrot for WAR's RvR may continue into 1.3. Crossrealming bosses has been addressed, but what is to stop groups, for example, from never invading an instance and only participating in a PvE one just for the loot? If, for one idea, you could get exclusive gear or renown rewards only possible by accomplishing goals in an invaded, actively contested instances, I think you might get more of the RvR the developers, and the players, both crave.

We'll see what future content and patches will have to offer WAR players. But I think it's safe to say right now that the main issue of keeping players playing Tier 4 endgame, rather than re-rolling or worse, quitting, is that lack of carrot, that ability to mix some old standbys with some new favorites for WAR's rabbit-like players to devour. If the past few months are any indication, it isn't that the rabbits aren't hungry - it's that they just need a little push to get them to eat something you want them to.

(PS: The picture is indeed one of the bunnies in my home)

[Norzin]

Certainly one of the best posts I have seen about in a while.

To summarise my thoughts ... I agree.

[Soulsource]

Originally Posted by PhoenixRed

(PS: The picture is indeed one of the bunnies in my home)

That is one sweet looking rabbit!

[Khaela-Mensha-Khaine]

Weapons that level up with the amount of ppl you kill? (Think thats in LotR) Thats a good idea. *some other guy:* yeah! listen that that guy, *another random:* that guy knows what he's talkin bout, obviously his name is not Willis.

[radishlaw]

Insightful opinion, especially by comparing players to animals - away from the pretense of "civilization", players ARE nothing more than a bunch of small animals in a virtual playpen eating, humping each other and pooping. Excellent opening to an opinion piece.

[Ancient Crone]

A reply from the loyal opposition here...

I've been playing about 7 months now, never quit or threatened to do so. I tried PvP/RvR for the first couple of months, got zero pleasure from it, and have played many hours (10-16) per day since then doing PvE only. No carrot will ever return me to RvR.

That being said, and I know I'm a minority in this game, it's depressing when incentives are continually added for RvR and the PvE players are totally ignored. I've thoroughly enjoyed what PvE is offered, but it's becoming harder and harder to handle how often I feel pushed to go where I don't want to be.

WAR has many wonderful qualities that I prefer to WoW, LotR, GW, etc., but if a new really good PvE-compatible game ever comes out, I'll have no reason to re-sub. No carrots are ever offered to me.

[Norzin]

Originally Posted by Ancient Crone

I've been playing about 7 months now, never quit or threatened to do so. I tried PvP/RvR for the first couple of months, got zero pleasure from it, and have played many hours (10-16) per day since then doing PvE only. No carrot will ever return me to RvR.

... What in the world do you do in PVE for 16 hours a day for months on end?

[Ancient Crone]

Originally Posted by Norzin

... What in the world do you do in PVE for 16 hours a day for months on end?

It's a very large world. I try different classes, new approaches to old quests, tome unlocks, different mixes of archtypes.

I belong to a small and very friendly Order guild whose companionship I enjoy. Most of them do RvR and I supply potions and a Vent server for free and my profits from the AH go mostly to support my guild.

I also play Destro on a different server without being in a guild. The differences between Order and Destro are like an amusing fun-house mirror of each other. Not saying either is bad...just completely different PoV's.

One of these days I will run out of things to do, and no PvE-only content is being added. That makes me sad.

Edit to add: It sure would be nice to have a T5 and new content added for levels 41-50...especially since I have no way to get RR.

[RhymeBomb]

This is a wonderful article. I love WAR and I play it every day, but I completely agree with the notion that there needs to be more tangible end-game rewards. Like he said, climbing the renown rank ladder is a very, very long process, and more often then not, completely unrewarding. Once you hit 45 or 50 or so, you have a week or four of "grinding" before you're able to...what...add 2% to your healing crit chance?

I know I'm coming off as one of those "give me lootz 4 free" buttheads, but I'm not. I love that it takes so long to hit RR80. I love that people are still playing the game in spite of a somewhat ambiguous end-game progression system. I just believe that short-term rewards are ofttimes just as important or more important than the long-term ones.

[Monatu]

Originally Posted by Ancient Crone

It's a very large world. I try different classes, new approaches to old quests, tome unlocks, different mixes of archtypes.

I belong to a small and very friendly Order guild whose companionship I enjoy. Most of them do RvR and I supply potions and a Vent server for free and my profits from the AH go mostly to support my guild.

I also play Destro on a different server without being in a guild. The differences between Order and Destro are like an amusing fun-house mirror of each other. Not saying either is bad...just completely different PoV's.

One of these days I will run out of things to do, and no PvE-only content is being added. That makes me sad.

Edit to add: It sure would be nice to have a T5 and new content added for levels 41-50...especially since I have no way to get RR.

...how are you not bored out of your scull? WAR's solo-able PVE is so ridiculously easy it makes me bored after about 2 minutes.

[Azhul]

1 - Mythic mentions loot rewards more in their videos than realm pride. I'm sure this was an intentional marketing scheme. You reap what you sow. The idea that city sieges are a loot grind, rather than an awesome and rare spectacle is terrible. Having something happen more often makes it less special, not more. City sieges should not be happening more than once a week, much less twice a day. With LOTD, there will be other high-end content to do, so this would be a good time to put in a revised campaign system to slow down campaign progress.

2 - It's really tough to give meaningful (effective) rewards for victory in PvP without creating a snowball effect - the rich get richer. Even if you make such rewards realm-based and reset them when a king is captured, at some point if one side gets a significant advantage in the campaign most of the losing players will give up and wait for the reset. What could be done is increase the rewards for victory for the disadvantaged side. The top-end rewards should not just be more gear sets. They should be expendable or degrading items which means they will be needed again later. Uber potions and talismans (with short timers). Uber weapons and armour which wear out and become useless, so you will have an incentive to get them again later on.

I'd like to see a system of towers in and around the RvR zones which give off the realm colour of the owner for all to see to rub one's success in the enemy's face. We also need to be able to talk to the enemy to taunt them. There simply is not enough hatred of the enemy in this game.

[Anaerion]

PhoenixRed writes a good article and makes a good case, and I agree to a point. The game certainly could use a tastier carrot. However I don't believe it's the carrot that will keep players from quitting once they reach the endgame. The only thing that can do that is a sturdier end-game, one that has ALOT more depth to it.

I have been playing since the game was released and put 4 hours a day or so into the game and much more on weekends. I have full Invader and I see no reason to continue playing in T4 currently. I enjoy RVR and regularly head out with guild or alliance warbands, but this gets boring after while, what else is there to do? The city sieges are boring and getting to stage 2 relies more on the scenarios (which are for T3 and lower players - how stupid is that?) than the PQ and the whole city siege instance is pretty boring already anyway. Population imbalance, class imbalance and too much crowd control / AOE is what is driving people away from the end game, not lack of incentive. My money says you fix these things and you will see alot of players return to the game, subscriber base will increase and people will be more inclined to venture into the RVR lakes. No matter what carrot you dangle, once someone enters the RVR zone (especially casual or noob players) and is on the receiving end of stun/disabled/knockdown/rooted 'oops you're dead and I'm sorry you never got to do anything before you died' they are not going to come back, that initial experience will have traumatised them for life. Its only the hardcore players that will persist.

Many players I speak to think that T1 has some of the most enjoyable RVR content in the game, and its due to the lack of CC/AOE. Its a melee game but I feel ranged has too much of an edge currently. I also feel the base 'rock-paper-scissors' mechanic doesn't work.

[agentsvr]

Originally Posted by Monatu

...how are you not bored out of your scull? WAR's solo-able PVE is so ridiculously easy it makes me bored after about 2 minutes.

Well, RvR is even more boring. Most of the time zerging around capturing objectives or keeps and waiting for zones to lock, farming endless reknown. It is SO boring! No skill involved, the largest group wins, you loose nothing from dieing so enemies are just uninterestingly throwing their lives away at your feet.

I agree that MOST of this game is PvE. I don't know if they fired their PvE team, or why they are so unconsidered inside WAR. The tome unlocks system is fun, and if the story was a bit more driven it could be more fun. There is an urgent need to review all drops from PQ, since most of them are disproportional to the level and time spent.

For example, i can drop a green/blue lvl 11 shield at a PQ that is 4 lvls worse than a lvl 9 shield boght at renown merchant. Also i get lvl 5 items with talisman slots and lvl +1 talismans with minimum lvl requirement to be lvl 9, so i wonder what kind of talismans can be weared there, etc..

It feels like they hired a big team to develop content to the game on contract, then they fired them and the only ones that are running the game are RvR fanatics. The game is unbalanced in so many ways. The fact that RvR gaming is a non-zero-game, makes it completely uninteresting as to rewards matter (in this case, it's a win/win situation, you never loose anything you just win less or more). You can be the worse player ever as long you spend much time on the game you will have a statue for renown gaining on your city. I mean, the ones that lock the zone ARE NOT the ones that enter a fortress, and sometimes don't even receive the tick. If we had to compare Warhammer Alliance to any animal i would compare it to grasshoppers. There is a lack of healing classes and an OP incentive to play DPS. There are mostly 4 classes per zone, only one of them is type healer. From this 1/4, 2/3 paths are not healing ones, so if players would choose randomnly between paths and classes (a good distribution for the content) only 1/12 of the players would be healers. Now try to enter a party where only 1 player is a healer and tell me what is your chances of survivability. The healing specs should be something like 1/3 of the entire game. Healers have dps trees (that is good for PvE, but once again PvE is outdated content) but dps/tanks have no healer tree (which is bad for oRvR/scenarios). The sets/jewells is just the same thing.

It's an endless zerging game where everytime i come back to play the game they change something to break the classes i play.

[ahbab]

Kudos for the only non-fanboi fan site out there. The truth is the truth no matter how much we loved the game it is nothing but fail now. They just trying to give us more carrots but we are not following their stick anymore.
We figured them out after DAOC and they shoulda known that we wont be suckers once again.
Edit: just to add , no loot or pride or whatever you name will make me play it more than actual engine performance increase and serious bug fix . Getting stuck on grass at 6 fps on lowest details in keep is something no one likes no matter what you give them as reward or whatever

[Drannath]

Originally Posted by ahbab

Getting stuck on grass at 6 fps on lowest details in keep is something no one likes no matter what you give them as reward or whatever

Man you get that high? Sometimes I don't even get 1 at a keep, and forts are out of the question unless I get there 10mins early, and can stay up in the lord room spamming group heal. Even then I get d/c's fairly regularly. Third realm would sort out many of the games problems. DAoC's 3 realm system worked wonders, until ToA came out and the time sink began, meaning those that had the time/luck got really powerful, and the rest of us got epic fail.

Renown Ranks should work more like Realm Ranks imo as well. Nothing more satisfying then seeing high RR players in groups, and knowing that your mixed RR3-7 group could still steam roll them if you had enough skill, and in many cases luck.

Zerg mentality is too strong in WAR. DAoC had far less of a zerg except for relic raids, and then you'd often find yourself fighting both other realms as one was defending, and the other wanted to steal that relic from under you. Could they not do something like that for WAR? Not like the DAoC relics, where you got damage bonuses for controlling more relics, but something like increased exp or unique weapons that had procs on them that would only go off when you controlled those extra tidbits of joy. Or just make the RvR lakes more like the frontiers, where you had to zone into the area especially, rather than having all those people who are PvE'ing lagging up the zone.