The WAH - 7/23/09 - Balance and the Archetypes

[Anglakhel]

This week marks the release of Mythic's latest patch to balance combat in WAR, patch 1.3.0b. The patch has been heralded as a major rebalancing of WAR in two primary areas most complained about: AoE and CC. Mythic has also emphasized time and again that this patch is merely the first step in a new journey to address the issues and concerns many players have with WAR. The big question on a lot of player's minds though is: "Will this patch actually balance Bright Wizards and Sorceresses?"

Some of you may initially dismiss this claim, but I think there is more truth there than most of us are comfortable or happy with. While AoE and CC are often cited as the main problem areas in the game, chances are when you noticed how much they were disrupting your sense of enjoyment with the game, there was a Bright Wizard or Sorceresses gleefully nuking you and your warband into oblivion.

The patch we have been given attempts to solve the issues with AoE and CC in broad strokes. Many concerns have been raised about the specifics of the most recent patch, but I don't think we're going to see the real impact of the patch until we've had it on the live servers for a week or two. We're not going to see if the patch has brought the Bright Wizards and Sorceresses back down to earth with the rest of us, or if they continue to make the most dominant impression upon every conflict they enter.

So, I think we're all going to have to wait to see how these specific changes play out in the game. However, in the meantime, I want to discuss why the Bright Wizard and Sorceress are currently bad for WAR and how Mythic ought to address the problems raised by their previous treatment of these and other careers. What I would like to discuss is the path I think Mythic should be traveling on this journey we're being asked to take. AoE and CC are two areas of concern that have been greatly disrupting game experience for many players, but they're merely the most immediate problem. Curtailing them in the short term is important, but there are more fundamental issues with WAR's balance that need to be addressed.

In short, over the coming months and upcoming patches, it's my hope that Mythic will return to a focus on game balance through the Archetypes. Until they better define the roles of each of the four Archetypes and then ensure that each Career can fulfill the role of their designated Archetype, meaningful balance will continue to elude WAR.


Balancing by Archetype
With WAR, rather than creating stock Classes that cross race and faction boundaries, Mythic opted to create four Archetypes that would encompass all the playable Careers. These four Archetypes include the Melee Tank, Melee DPS, Ranged DPS and Support/Healer. Every Career currently in the game fits into one of these four roles. This allows for meaningful balance based upon Archetype roles, but allows for much greater diversity and uniqueness in specific Careers. Each Career represents its given Archetype, but they also reflect the personality of their particular race in a way that generic Classes can never accomplish.

This however creates particular issues that must be addressed to have meaningful balance in WAR. Without generic Classes spread across both factions, the Archetypes bear the burden and responsibility to keep the gameplay balanced, dynamic, and enjoyable. Upon examination, the Archetype system creates two primary dimensions that must be considered in order to achieve balance.

1) How does each Archetype function in relation to the other Archetypes?

2) How does each Career within an Archetype function in relation to other Careers in the same Archetype?

If the balance of either of these is off, we are going to see problems in the balance and gameplay in WAR. This balancing act will never be perfect, but we can see where things are swinging out of balance by considering these two different dimensions.

It seems WAR has drifted away from the Archetype system that was built into its foundation. It often seems like balance is adjusted without a clear plan for how it is impacting the overall interaction between Archetypes and the interaction within Archetypes. Major changes have occurred globally that fail to account for how various Archetypes rely on the adjusted mechanics more than others, or major changes have occurred to individual Careers that fail to account for how that Careers performs in relation to the others in its Archetype.

Trying to maintain balance through massive global changes or through individually fiddling with Careers one at time hasn't been making large strides toward improved balance in WAR. The Archetypes represent a more responsive point at which the balance can be adjusted. Over the coming months, if we are to see a substantial and meaningful improvement in combat balance it is going to require that Mythic addresses the two dimensions of Archetype balance. Addressing the first dimension requires that each Archetype be well defined, or redefined, in comparison with the other Archetypes. Addressing the second dimension means looking within each Archetype to ensure that all the Careers can effectively perform the assigned role of that Archetype and that they perform on a similar level to other Careers within that Archetype.


Defining Archetypes
What is the Archetype? What are its strengths? What are its weaknesses? What can it do that no other Archetype can do?

These are some of the relevant questions when examining the Archetypes in WAR. Ultimately, the goal ought to be to create four Archetypes that each make a unique contribution to the dynamics of combat in WAR. Each Archetype should have a focus that cannot be replicated by another Archetype. A warband or party that neglects one of the given Archetypes should be giving themselves a dramatic disadvantage. Warbands and parties with a healthy balance of Archetypes should have a leg up on groups with a poor Archetype distribution.

There a number of challenges though. Each Archetype needs to have a focus and primary area of effectiveness, but they also need to have built in disadvantages. They need weaknesses that make them reliant on the other Archetypes to reach maximum effectiveness. No Archetype or Career should have all the tools they need to perform at optimal efficiency. Making any Archetype too effective is just as damaging as having an Archetype be ineffective, if not more so. The desire is to have each Archetype make a contribution, but avoid having any one Archetype (or Career) that is absolutely essential to success in RvR. It should hurt if you neglect any Archetype, but it should not hurt more if you neglect Healers as opposed to Melee DPS for example. That is the real challenge, to ensure that each Archetype brings some essential tools to RvR that make them desired in parties and warbands.

Let's take a moment and look at the Archetypes Mythic has defined for WAR. We have the Melee Tank, Melee DPS, Ranged DPS and Support/Healer. What are their unique roles? How do they impact conflict in WAR? The basic definitions for the Archetypes do not seem overly problematic, but when we examine the specifics of how the Archetypes are currently functioning we find a number of significant problems that contribute to imbalances in which Archetypes are most effective in RvR and consequently which Archetypes are most played.

For reference purposes, while I discuss the representation of various Archetypes, I will primarily be referring to date collected from WARHeap. I am certain Mythic has their own tools and data which will be more accurate, but I think WARHeap is helpful at pointing out some trends. I will be reporting data from the most recent census regarding the three most active servers: Iron Rock (Core), Dark Crag (Open RvR), and Phoenix Throne (RP). The numbers reflect players of all tiers, but you will find the trend toward the Healer and Ranged DPS Archetype grows even more pronounced if you look at Tier 4 or Max Rank Characters.

Support/Healer

The Support/Healer Archetype has an immediate and clear function within WAR. They bring the unique ability to heal and return fallen combatants to battle. They bring a variety of utility buffs to their parties and warbands. Their weakness tends to be a lack of killing power to defeat the enemy and a need for allies to protect them while they heal. However, looking at the various servers shows that the Support/Healer Archetype is one of the most played Archetypes in WAR.

Iron Rock: 28.8%/31.3%
Dark Crag: 28.9%/31.2%
Phoenix Throne: 29.2%/31.5%

Ranged DPS

The Ranged DPS Archetype is also extremely influential in WAR and is heavily represented in play. Ranged DPS brings killing power through direct damage, dots, and area-of-effect abilities. Ranged DPS provide the killing power that Healers lack. Their biggest disadvantage is meant to be a vulnerability to damage. They tend to be lightly armored and are meant to be in danger in close combat.

Iron Rock: 31.9%/28.4%
Dark Crag: 32.6%/27.5%
Phoenix Throne: 29.9%/28.4%

Melee DPS

The Melee DPS Archetype has much of the same functionality as the Ranged DPS Archetype. It's here where we begin to see one of the big problems with the current balance of the Archetypes in WAR. Melee DPS have the same basic job as Ranged DPS, but they need to be in point blank range to do their job. They have a little more armor, but they have to put themselves in much greater danger to apply pressure to the enemy. When they are up close, the Archetype overall lacks a significant advantage over Ranged DPS to compensate for the range requirement. This is reflected in the Melee DPS Archetype being the least played Archetype in WAR. If you look at almost any server, there are two Healers or two Ranged DPS playing for every one Melee DPS.

Iron Rock: 17.3%/16.5%
Dark Crag: 18.3%/17.8%
Phoenix Throne: 17.3%/16%

Tanks

The Melee Tank is another Archetype with something of an identity crisis. Tanks need a defined role that is different than what Healers/Support or DPS Archetypes bring to combat. If a Tank gains too much DPS, they become basically a heavily armored Melee DPS which undermines the unique role of the actual Melee DPS Archetype. Yet if the Melee Tank Archetype is not going to have much damage, then what is its role? In theory, Tanks are meant to be extremely tough to kill, but if they don't do something beyond surviving, then they merely live the longest and they will be killed once priority targets are all down.

Iron Rock: 22%/23.8%
Dark Crag: 20.3%/23.5%
Phoenix Throne: 23.6%/24%


Current Archetype Balance
It should be painfully clear that in the current game we have a serious imbalance in the Archetypes. Overall, the melee based Archetypes, Tanks and DPS, are suffering in comparison to the Healers and Ranged DPS. As the game progresses this trend becomes more and more severe. There are a number of problems, but I think the primary ones include the poor distinction between Ranged and Melee DPS. Melee DPS simply do not have enough unique advantages to make up for their ranged handicap. For pure DPS, Ranged DPS is far superior. For DPS with survivability, Tanks do a better job. This leaves Melee DPS with a very small niche to fill and one that seems to be easiest to ignore when planning a battle. Tanks contribute to this problem as they often have a poorly defined role if they aren't either functioning as a Melee DPS or a Guardbot. Neither role is contributing to a more dynamic and compelling RvR experience in WAR. For Tanks to stand out as an Archetype with a clear role from Melee DPS, I think the Tank Archetype needs to become the primary source of CC and Control in combat. CC needs to be scaled back from the other Archetypes and focused on the Tanks giving them a distinct role apart from DPS and survivability.


Career Balance within Archetypes
Defining the role of the Archetypes is of vital importance to building a strong foundation for balance in WAR, but there is also the issue of balance within Archetypes, which is often the easier problem to see. This brings us to the second dimension of Archetype balance. How do individual Careers within an Archetype relate to other Careers in the Archetype?

There is a fine line to be tread here. Ideally, each Career within an Archetype needs to be able to fulfill the functioning of that Archetype. When building a group or warband it is of vital importance that singular Careers aren't so effective that that and only that Career will do. Prior to the most recent patch, we have all seen a couple dominant group formations that depend on particular Careers to succeed. The Bright Wizard and Sorceress reign supreme here. No other Careers have as much of an impact upon the success of a group or warband as these two Careers. AoE bombing groups have arguably contributed the most to the complaints about AoE and CC that led to this patch. These groups are built around the powers of the BW or Sorc. Other Careers are rotated in to complement and magnify the powers of these Careers, but the groups don't get off the ground without one of these two Careers. On a smaller scale we had Rift groups built around a Magus (or less often an Engineer), but Magus groups were far less common than straight bomb groups, and they still generally depended on the AoE bombers to get the killing done.

So, we have a couple problems compounding here. The Ranged DPS Archetype is currently defined in such a way that makes them more important to success than Melee DPS or Tanks, but in addition to that issue we have a problem within the Ranged DPS Archetype. The Bright Wizard and Sorceress that are simply far more effective at being Ranged DPS than the other Careers within the Archetype.

If WAR had good Archetype balance for all the Careers you could take any of the available Ranged DPS Careers and plug them into a party and know they could fulfill the basic needs of the Archetype. If our party needs 1-2 Ranged DPS, it shouldn't matter whether we take a Sorceress and Squig Herder, or a Magus and a Squig Herder. This is not to say there shouldn't be differences, but the core functionality of the Archetype should remain intact whichever Ranged Careers we choose to use.

Every Archetype currently has some obvious imbalances. Looking at each Archetype you find Careers that seem to excel far beyond the abilities of the rest of the Careers in the same Archetype. This contributes to a general feeling that you should be playing one of half a dozen Careers rather than picking the most interesting out of the twenty-four available.

Here is where the numbers start to look the most alarming. Using Iron Rock, Dark Crag and Phoenix Throne again, I want to look at the numbers on a couple of Careers. This time, I just want to highlight the Active Rank 40 population from Renown Rank 71-79. These are the percentages for the most active Careers in the highest Renown bracket in the game.

Iron Rock:

14.9% Bright Wizard
13.4% Sorceress
10.4% Warrior Priest
06.0% Iron Breaker, Chosen, Zealot, Disciple of Khaine

Dark Crag:

18.8% Bright Wizard
10.1% Knight of the Blazing Sun
08.7% Iron Breaker
07.2% Warrior Priest

Phoenix Throne:

20.0% Sorceress
17.5% Bright Wizard
07.5% Rune Priest, Zealot, Shadow Warrior


What we see is an extremely uneven distribution of Careers. Many Careers are under or unrepresented while a few Careers appear time and again, from server to server, massively over represented compared to other Careers in the game and within their Archetypes. Again, I'm sure Mythic has better metrics that give a more complete picture, but I am certain these same trends are reflected in Mythic's metrics.

That said, this is not a small issue or a trivial concern. These kind of imbalances create large scale disruption in the enjoyment of the game and bringing these Careers back into balance needs to be a priority. Having two Careers make up around 30% of the active population of players in the highest renown bracket isn't a sign of healthy Career distribution. While scaling back AoE will have an impact upon these two Careers, there is a clear need for more directed adjustments to these Careers to create a more consistent Archetype. I hope though that I've been clear that the problem doesn't solely reside in the Bright Wizard and Sorceress, but these two Careers are the most pronounced example of the inequities that are plaguing Career and Archetype balance in WAR.


Conclusion
Mythic has indicated that they are listening to our concerns and understand our frustrations. They've indicated they are working one step at a time to address the problems and make WAR the great MMO it deserves to be. I just hope that Mythic keeps a strong focus on the Archetypes that lie at the heart of balance in WAR. The imbalances we currently experience in WAR can be traced back to the Archetypes lacking focus on their core purpose. The Archetypes need a better balance between the Healers, the Tanks, Melee and Ranged DPS. Further, the balance within each Archetype needs to be a priority and Careers that are over or under performing the role of their Archetype need to be adjusted. With a serious commitment to balancing these two dimensions, we can look forward to a WAR where every battle isn't determined by the Bright Wizards and Sorceresses.

[Xae]

Mythic has been playing with Kid gloves when it comes to BW/Sorcs since beta, and 1.3.0b makes it abundantly clear they still are.

"Collateral damage" to already gimped classes like Shadow Warriors, Magus, Marauders and Blackguards was far more severe than the damage to the targets (BW/Sorcs).

There is just no logic behind Mythic's actions. They continue to play with the kid gloves for the classes that have probably cost them hundreds of thousands of subscriptions; but for the classes that need a bit of Miracle-Grow they break out the chain saw.

How can these actions be reconciled? One on hand clearly overpowered classes get a slap on the wrist and clearly underpowered classes take one right in the shorts. It makes no sense and I can not logically reconcile the actions. The cognitive dissonance at Mythic must be palpable.

[Chosenon]

I dont think devs care about archetype situation. Proof: we, majority of customers, made it clear that BW/Sorc are currently overbalanced and in 1.3b everyone - even them - expected BW/Sorc to get most damage reduction. But look who got most hit by AOE "balance" patch - Shadow warrior, Magus, Blackguard....

If it is not sign that devs want to keep BW/Sorc overbalanced, then i dont know how they would make their intention even more crystal clear.

[Verizian]

I've only got a few hours playtime in with the new patch (EU Karak Norn) but I have to agree.
Yes bright wizard/sorc damage has been "reduced" on paper but combined with aoe heal nerfs and other factors players die even faster to bomb groups now.
Before the patch I'd regularly have bright wizards hitting for 200-300 and critting 400-700 with 60% or so mitigation. Now hits are 100 but 9/10 crit for 350+ and there are no aoe heals coming in.

Meanwhile you have people stubbornly clinging to the magus class actually contemplating Str talismans because poking people with auto attack using a 80dps+ staff hits harder than some of their spells.

This patch was needed but it's a stepping stone and Mythic need to show us the next one fast because the playerbase already has cold feet and feels dizzy.

That said, I need to thank Mythic for fixing the out of range bug on melee single target abilities.

[Rer]

Anglakhel,

Wow.... I must say that this is by far the best article I've ever read on Warhammer Alliance, period. Its articles like these that openly discuss some of the players largest concerns, while using statistics to prove them, that I really love reading. So kudos to you.

Your analysis of the different archetypes and their roles in the WAR effort is spot on. It has become increasingly clear over the past few months that the Bright Wizard and Sorceresses are simply too powerful for their own good. Personally, I think a reduction in the amount of extra damage and crit chance they gain from their mechanic is the first thing that needs to be considered.

However, as a Magus, I'm more than willing to admit that I am partially to blame. The problem is that because Bright Wizards and Sorceresses are so powerful, players have adjusted their styles and habits to best assist them in killing opponents as efficiently as possible (ie Rift Groups, in the case of myself). Hence, when Bright Wizards and Sorceresses kill opponents, the classes that assisted them are largely left to take the blame.

While I understand Mythic's motive behind this recent patch, I still think it fails to address the gross amount of damage that Bright Wizards and Sorceress are able to deal while simultaneously severely hurting other classes. This results in an even larger necessity to bring Bright Wizards and Sorceresses to groups, while further alienating the weaker classes. Already, I've noticed that my comrades have begun to take in Sorceresses to Scenario Premades and Warbands over Magus.

Anyways, I found this article to be outstanding, and I thank you for addressing so many players concerns. I've made a short article about this on my blog in order to hopefully give this article a few more readers (but honestly all of them would have probably seen this anyways, lol).

In conclusion, as on my blog, I will leave you with a question. Do you think that because so many players have gravitated towards the Bright Wizard and Sorceress due to their obvious advantages over other classes that Mythic is in fact reluctant to bring them in line due to possible rage-quits/subscription losses?

[Lordalpha]

Very nice read ! I only played a couple of hours in 1.3b but i felt more comfortable as a MDPS, maybe because i could reach my targets with more than half my health point ! I really wait for the "next stpe" they will make in that direction..

[stjobe]

Interesting article.

I've always (played since open beta) wondered why class balance is such a hard nut to crack for Mythic and I've come to the conclusion that either the game code is such a mess that altering anything is extremely difficult, or the developers simply don't want the classes to be balanced. It cannot be this hard to get at least a resemblance of class balance. Not with beta testing and soon a year of live data.

One other point that might be made concerning archetype balance is that not all classes have a well thought-through class mechanic. I think this area is one that also needs to be looked at if we ever are going to have balance within archetypes. Combustion is a ridiculously good mechanic compared to almost any other. And don't even get me started on BO/AM 1-2-3 plan dancing or Marauder mutations...

And for the love of $deity - can someone get it through Mythic's head that using the nerfhammer or buffhammer across all classes does not affect the relative balance between classes? With this latest patch, nothing - absolutely nothing - has been changed in the relative power of the classes. BW/Sorcs still rule the battlefield.

What we need to see now is a quick (next week preferably) patch that redresses the damage that this patch has done to a lot of classes (magus/marauder/shadow warrior to name a few) so that they once again become attractive to play and have a meaningful role to fill. Otherwise this will descend into Brightwizard Online, and I don't think the 70% that are NOT playing that class want that slide to continue.

I don't think that Mythic ever intended the BW (and to a lesser extent the Sorc) to be this dominating, but I'm starting to have my doubts when patch after patch after patch fails to address that glaring problem.

If my memory serves, there was a period in November-December when the BWs didn't just melt our faces with impunity, but apart from that they've been overpowered in one way or the other since launch. RoF stacking, resistance capping and now bomb squads.

Well, I didn't mean this to turn into a "nerf BWs!" post, but from my perspective as a destruction player they ARE the most imbalanced (read: overpowered) class in the game, and need to be balanced fast.

[Marsares]

Although the patch created some obvious class imbalances, which I certainly hope will be fixed shortly, in general it had an incredibly positive effect on the game I must say. I was sceptic about it, and even though I still not agree with their blanket approach, I do believe now with hindsight that they did the right thing.

Last night saw the best battles ever on Karak Norn, and both sides agree to that. Given that people do no longer melt in seconds due to random AOE, or get CC-ed to death, the battles were a lot more fluid and lasted a lot longer. As a result, they became a lot more tactical which resulted in Karak Norn on setting up shield walls on strategical bottlenecks in open RvR, leading whole WB's into outflanking the enemy and decoy attacks. On top of that, due to less AoE and CC the MDPS-ers now had a chance to make a good impact on the battle.

Obviously, there are some clear UP classes at the moment and they need to be brought in line with the rest, and I would hope that this happens rather today then tomorrow, but we need to be careful with kneejerk reactions to BW's/Sorc as I do not advocate that we go down the same path as the WE which basically became a sacrificial lamb and got neutered beyond belief on the altar of the nerf god. Bombing may be an annoying tactic, it is a viable tactic. And although one can argue that it is somewhat too efficient, it should remain a viable tactic.

[brocher]

I agree that tanks should be the main CC class. With WAR PvP centric from the first hour of play the defining ability of a tank class, holding agg on multiple mobs, becomes insignificant so they need to have a broader role.

As far as the bias of careers playing the game, this is in danger of becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy. Obviously something is wrong if 30% of people are playing 8% of the careers, Mythic clearly knows this, but if Mythic nerfs them too much then you're making 30% of your player base, who have invested many hours into their characters, extremely angry. I imagine they're taking a 'boiling a frog' approach with small nerfs (balances) applied over a period of a few patches.

That other, already weak and underplayed, careers are currently being hit with a nerf is unfortunate but I'm sure Mythic don't want to fall into the trap of making another flavour of the month career only to have to balance that to much wailing and gnashing of teeth 6 months down the road.

[Marsares]

Originally Posted by Chosenon

Noone wants to have thic tactic become not viable, just simply toned down from "too efficient" to just "efficient". I think this is something we, and most players, agree with.

But it is strange that after so many testing and balancing BWs still have "too efficient" tactics.

Agree, but it seems to be that a Witchhunt is being called for on BW/Sorc, very much akin to what we had with WE's and we all know the result of that. The patch has been favourable on gameplay overall, but this does not mean that Mythic may make stupid decisions again and overnerf a class. And it's not only about BW's, Sorcs were yesterday topping damage charts all over the place as well.

Like someone else said: "I don't doubt that bomb groups should be viable, so long as it requires actual skill and a knowledge of the game as opposed to every Tom, and Harry rolling a BW, WP and KotBS and wtfpwning everyone."

The thing to bear in mind though is that good guilds will adapt anyways. Bombing was too easy and, in the word of the person that I quoted, Tom and Harry were bombing. Now the AoE has been reduced, as well as damage, and it already takes more coordination to pull it off efficiently. If it gets nerfed more, than good guilds will switch to assist trains, which in reality only good guilds can pull off so PuGs will be roflstomped even more by the elite guilds, resulting in yet another nerf campaign. It's a vicious circle.

It's a fine balance that Mythic needs to find, and I don't envy them for it!

With regards to your question. I don't know. All I can say is that a disproportionate amount of players played WE's, including you Izzymode (Chosenon). Did that stop Mythic? Did it stop them introducing resist changes that effectively neutered BW/Sorc for some months, until 40% caps got introduced? Only Mythic knows what their next step will be, but I'm glad they're taking smaller and more logical steps this time.

[Chosenon]

Originally Posted by Marsares

Agree, but it seems to be that a Witchhunt is being called for on BW/Sorc, very much akin to what we had with WE's and we all know the result of that. The patch has been favourable on gameplay overall, but this does not mean that Mythic may make stupid decisions again and overnerf a class. And it's not only about BW's, Sorcs were yesterday topping damage charts all over the place as well.

There is no witchunt, dont exagerate would you? We only ask to get "too efficient" tactics to be balanced down (ok, nerfed) to just "efficient". We dont ask Mythic to overnerf, but we ask Mythic to balance down too efficient tactics.

Dont know much about WE, but good ones still shine, on my RP i die in 5-6 seconds to good ones, dont seem they were nerfed so much tbh.

So in short, i think we both agree that BW/Sorc still need some balancing.

[stjobe]

Originally Posted by brocher

if Mythic nerfs [Bright Wizards] too much then you're making 30% of your player base, who have invested many hours into their characters, extremely angry.

As opposed to making the other 70% of the player base, who have also invested many hours into their characters, extremely angry that their classes are not competitive? You don't play a BW by any chance?

A nerf to BWs (and to a lesser extent Sorcs) is still needed. This patch didn't do it, last patch didn't do it, 1.2 definately didn't do it.

All in all, Mythic needs to take a good look at each class in turn and nerf a few and bring the others up to par.

[Evilina]

Blanket balance changes only result in good balance if the balance was good to begin with.

That's it. That's all there is too it when you start doing blanket changes that impact balance.


As for the archetype balance, at least on our server, we have the problem of having hardly any mdps/tanks on order side in orvr, mostly because the numbers balance (or lack thereof) pushed order into a BW bombing/general ranged keep/fort defense play style, whereas the previous patches encouraged destro to take up a choppa/melee assist train with some rdps as assistance. The AoE nerf was welcome, but like this? Now we don't have hardly enough mdps to reach the squishies and ranged just doesn't cut it.

My SW is pretty much useless now, I used to be able to switch to skirmish stance from my scout spec to at least do something in zerg v zerg combat, but with an overal 30% less dps in AoE spec that's pretty much idiotic to do now anyway. But yes, BW and Sorcs are less powerful now too. Yay.

[Quiksilva]

When BW's and Sorcs get the wounds and armour of other classes, and get a self damage mechanic removed, then their damage can be brought down to the rest of you.

They are SUPPOSED to be the biggest damage dealers, because they are balanced by the fact that one of the people they do the most damage to on the field are themselves!

Remove that, or make everybody else take random 700 hits, then we can start talking turkey.

[zimxxx69]

Originally Posted by Quiksilva

When BW's and Sorcs get the wounds and armour of other classes, and get a self damage mechanic removed, then their damage can be brought down to the rest of you.

They are SUPPOSED to be the biggest damage dealers, because they are balanced by the fact that one of the people they do the most damage to on the field are themselves!

Remove that, or make everybody else take random 700 hits, then we can start talking turkey.

are u having a laugh

here is somthing to look at
i made a bw and at lvl 11 (yep lvl 11 )hits a mob for over a 1000 damage
but on average it was around 200-500

my lvl 40 sw hit for around 200-300

i was even shooting the same mobs


if there self damage hit them with there own spell then the self damage mechinisum would be cool

but ive tried both bw and sorc and when ur hitting players for more than twice or three times the damage they are doing to you then its just not fair