Idea for a third faction

[Wolfner]

Greetings!

First of all, sorry for my bad english, but I am from the german WAR-community and I would like to hear your opinions about a little idea I had today (I will try to translate it loosely from my german thread):

So, something many WAR-players would appreciate is a third faction. Though it's difficult to answer the question: How can we implement such a third faction?

If we simply put a third faction with style of the present ones (3 races, an own Pve-Area with a connection to the RvR-Lake etc) into the game, many problems would occur:
* Where are the PvE-Areas for this faction?
* Where should we place the warcamps?
* How can link the PvE-Area of the third faction to the present RvR-Lakes without taking the necessary place from one of the present factions.

So how can we implement a third faction, without getting any of the problems mentioned above?
The answer: The third faction is only formed by the Skaven!

Why? Skaven simply don't need "new" zones. At least not in the classic way. Just imagine each big zone from T1-T3 (for example norsca+nordland) would have a huge system of tunnels and caves beneath the surface.

In these tunnels and caves there is the pve-area for the Skavenarmy.
Of course these caves would have some exits to the surface (so you don't have to do underground quests all the time).

Under the RvR-Lake(s) of each zone there could be smaller underground RvR-Lakes from where skavens could enter the battle on the surface and where the skaven-warcamps could be placed.

But just like with every idea about third factions T1-3 are not the main-problem. The biggest problem with the third faction is the redesign of T4.

But also here, the idea with tunneling the present zones works.
Let's take a look at one of those present T4-zones (Chaos vs Empire "seen from the side"):

Capital==CW==Praag==RL==Capital

Now there is the question: How do we actually implement a third faction without changing the present zones too much?
No problem for skavens and their tunnels!
Let's take another look at the T4-zones, now with the added skaven-zones (again seen from the side):

capital======CW==Praag==RL======capital
----------------T4S===T4S===T4S
----------------------------||
-------------------------T4SLvl2
----------------------------||
----------------------------||
--------------------------capital


A few explanations for this:
T4S(S=Skaven) is actually belonging to the zone of Praag (same RvR-Pool!). It's the huge system of tunnels and caves under the city. It consists of a pve-area as big as the pve-area for one of the factions on the surface, AND it also consists of an underground RvR-Lake with a skaven-keep and exits to the surface of Praag (so other faction actually can invade the underground of Praag).


T4S and T4S are in the same RvR-Pool as the above lying zones, but they are actually not real zones, only warcamps for the RvR-Lake. There is no PvE-area in these Skaven-caves (why? take a look at the paragraph with T4SLvl2).
So, why no keeps or an underground-RvR-Lake in these zones? The reasoning is the same as if whe ask the question: Why are there no chaos-keeps in Reikland? It's simply because those two zones are the homelands of a certain faction, and to be serious, you actually shouldn't be there

As we talk about homelands, let's talk about the skaven homeland.
Under the underground of Praag (so on the second level) there is a further skaven-area, which is called T4SLvl2 on the view above. This zone is equivalent to the Chaoswastes or Reikland. It consists of a full RvR-Lake including 2 keeps BUT the PvE-Area is twice as big as the PvE-area of one faction in for example Praag AND there are ONLY skaven-questcamps in it.
You will ask yourselves: why? It's quite simple: We don't want to change the present T4 zones a lot (costs a lot of money). A few entrances to the underground both in the PvE- and the RvR-areas represented by caves or holes in the ground and that's it. But you might say: The PvE-Areas are under the surface. So why bother? The answer is: The T4 zones, always lead the player from his homeland to chapter 21 of the pve-campaign, which is at the gates of the enemies city. With a 3-faction system the pve-campaign can't lead you to your enemies city (except you want to design 2 chapter 21s which costs a lot of money again).
So T4-skaven start the T4-campaign in their homeland T4SLvl2. There they have the exp, quests, pve-content etc. which order or destruction would have in the chaoswastes and praag or in reikland and praag. And then, when the other factions move to their opponents homeland (in their pve-campaign) skavens simply move to praag (where they can find something like the begin of the last surface-invasion as chapter 21).

And from there the rats can finally conquer the surface

So again, the sizes of the T4-PvE-areas for all three factions (ordered by the pve-campaigns):

Order
1/2 Reikland + 1/2 Praag + 1/2 Chaoswastes= 1,5 zones

Destruction
1/2 Chaoswastes + 1/2 Praag + 1/2 Reikland = 1,5 zones

Skaven
1 homeland + 1/2 Praag (tunneled) = 1,5 zones

So last but not least there is also a third underground level which consists of the fortress (if they are not completely taken out of the game) and the entrance to the capital (which could be Skavenblight. I know that skavenblight is located in Tilea, but on the other hand... Altdorf isn't located next to Praag either).

So, still there are some problems to solve:
How can order/destruction enter the homeland, without getting in the way of PvE-Skaven-players? (Tunnels etc)
How can you redesign scenarios? (that's a bigger one, but at least the only big one with the skaven-approach)
How can you redesign the RvR-Pool-Interface?
etc. etc.

In my opinion the skavens are the only faction which could be added without any bigger problems.

So Hail to the Horned Rat! And just tell me if you find any bigger problems with the system

Cheers
Wolfner

[Vlas]

First off... this horse has been beaten so much, its nothing but a lump of bone, meat, and dirt.

Secondly, thanks for taking the time to post something that may happen 3 years down the road if the game survives that long. You really think they will setup a third realm before fixing things?


Wait... they may do that and add even more bugs.

Touche.

[Wolfner]

Touché? Nah... (apart from the fact that the comment is inappropriate and snobbish)

"You really think they will setup a third realm before fixing things?"

Polishing and Bugfixing will be the issue of the 1.3.x-Patches for the next 6 months.
Quote by Sklaski
By looking at patch 1.3.2 we can clearly see (in the game, not on the net and especially not on the forums) that a big step into the right directon has been taken.

I don't say that a third faction will be the thing to implement when the polishing is done. But it's one things which would improve the game. And so it's worth to discuss about (or to discuss how it could be done...).

Just like improved Keep siege with breakable walls....


P.S.:
If I log on WAR I don't see a beaten horse. Rather a groomed one...

[Gulrokh]

I think you did a fantastic job so I allowed myself to post on the official NA forums (I hope it's not a problem for you). I don't think this game can survive for long without fixing the population imbalance issue and I see no effective ways to do that other than adding or more new factions.

[Vlas]

Originally Posted by Wolfner

Touché? Nah... (apart from the fact that the comment is inappropriate and snobbish)

Often people think that when their ideas are negatively remarked on.

Weird.

[Wolfner]

Originally Posted by Gulrokh

I think you did a fantastic job so I allowed myself to post on the official NA forums (I hope it's not a problem for you).

Not at all, thanks a lot!
I already wanted to post it on the warhammeronline.com forums myself, but as an european customer i don't have access to those forums I guess.

@Vlas
Think whatever you want, but reacting to an idea in a way that actually has something to do with the topic or reacting to an idea by pushing the topic to a meaningless "Is it even worth to think about things that could be done in future?"-discussion are two different things...
And nobody playing the game and having fun with it really cares about the last thing...

[Nalkkieth]

"Some brainstorming ideas from ironclaw {oceanic}community game does need a more of a world map feel to go on crusades to other lands while the normal campaign is in city lockdown or deciding to go other maps or defend normal ground"

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/for...d.php?t=313100

[Spuxy]

There's so many good ideas flowing around here by you guys, don't let them go to waste. And certainly don't disgard them no matter how far off or unrealistic they may seem. We need more ideas, and we need to give Mythic more feedback and development ideas.

If we're just going to say; "It's too late, the horse it dead." then we can simply end our subscriptions now, I doubt that Mythic and the community would try so hard if they didn't want our little pony to actually stand on it's own legs. Not saying that we don't need those comments, just that it'd be nice with some structure and careful consideration.

@Wolfner - I personally like your idea, though I must admit it'd be hard for me to reroll all of my chars.
But the concept of a 3rd faction is still, in my honest opinion, a brilliant idea.
It'd balance realms out somewhat, having 3 sides battling each other. I'll pull out an example;

Imagine that Order and Destruction are fighting in Praag, quite intensly and there's about half of both side's forces have diminished, then all of the sudden the 3rd faction rushes in and wipes them completely.

Sounds like the perfect scenery IMO.

[Gulrokh]

I'd definitely roll a rat on another server hehe.

[AlexyC]

like people often said bevore bring a new more open map to the game , mythic had done it bevore in daoc, why not now, bring in some more towers wich can be defended also by few people.
T1-T3 is great as it is, but T4 needs a huge landscape.

[Wolfner]

Originally Posted by AlexyC

like people often said bevore bring a new more open map to the game , mythic had done it bevore in daoc, why not now, bring in some more towers wich can be defended also by few people.
T1-T3 is great as it is, but T4 needs a huge landscape.

The problem with a complete redesign of T4 additionally to a further faction is that the costs for this would be high. And if I say "high" I mean "z0mg exp3ns1ve!!11".

Going by what I have heard about the redesign of a concept in a software-product that is "done"/implemented, the redesign of T4 would be far MORE expensive than the addition of a further faction which fits into the current concept or the addition of a further faction in general.

And actually thats the main problem: You need a three-faction-system which compeltes a two-faction-system without a redesign of the two-faction-system.

Though... towers would be nice

[Meztli]

@Wolfner
I apploud you. It´s pretty impressive to still have the energy, time and dedication to think about and create alternative solutions for this game. Dont care about the clueless idiots who dont realize that it actually takes some brains to put up with this, compared to all the meaningless whine and trolling.

Good job.

[Uggah]

They don't have the money to make a third faction.

The game is on life support and is only receiving minimal funds from EA right now.

[Fop]

I like this idea.


It has most of the positives of a Planetside - Black Ops/LOTRO - Monsterplay faction in implementation (i.e. relatively easy to add).


But it almost is a fully fleshed out 3rd faction.







All it needs is for the Skaven to have some factional balancing reasons for play (ie things to encourage the Skaven to attack the top dog of the main factions) and Mythic really should seriously consider this.

[Fop]

Originally Posted by Uggah

They don't have the money to make a third faction.

The game is on life support and is only receiving minimal funds from EA right now.

A Skaven 3rd faction would be the most logical and potentially money spinning of expansions - they'd have to let you play Skaven on your original server I suspect (with some sort of lock out maybe), but I think it would sell.

You're right about the development though, but that's still no reason for no supporting good ideas.