Various Class Mechanics

[Klitch]

This is what i know and understand to be in the game

Enjoy

*EDIT* Please note that i have based these pairings by the MECHANICS of their play only, not by what roles they might play on the battlefield, also, take it with a grain of salt people this is still ultimately my opinion and could very well be wrong, that said I based this off of all the current information i could find and i believe it to be accurate.
-Thanks to Foofmonger for prodding me into putting his disclaimer up
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Dark Elf - Sorceress/Empire - Bright Wizard == Cast spells building up a greater and greater crit chance, but at the same time build up a greater chance to "blow up" and damage yourself

Dark Elf - Witch Elf/Empire - Witch Hunter == Various items/potions/etc... temporarily embue the character with extra energy/damage/speed/etc... And build Frenzy/Interrogation points to spend on damaging attacks

Dark Elf - Disciple of Khaine/Empire - Warrior Priest == Melee combat in order to gain Favor/Life essence

Dark Elf - Black Guard/Dwarves - Ironbreaker == Build up Rage/Grudge have lots of it to be more effective
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Chaos - Chosen/Empire - Knight of the Blazing Sun == Auras

Chaos - Zealot/Dwarves - Runepriest == Place Marks/Glyphs on allies/foes to buff/debuff

Chaos - Magus/Dwarves - Engineer == Summonable timer based pets and utility range DPS

Chaos - Marauder/High Elf - Shadow Warrior == Stances
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Greenskins - Black Orc/High Elf - SwordMaster == Flexible combo/chain style attacks (think several ways to build up and several ways to finish, all interchangeable)

Greenskins - Choppa/Dwarves - Hammer == Deal damage to gain momentum/berserk to deal more damage and open new attacks and chains

Greenskins - Shaman/High Elf - Archmage == Balance damage and healing spells to maximize efficiency

Greenskins - Squig Herder/High Elf - *White Lion* == Long term Pet


*DISCLAIMER The White Lion class is the remaining unannounced class for the High Elf, but it makes just so much sense for it to be it, and so i included it in the list



Also i'm not in Beta () so this isn't leaking, this just accumulated knowledge after nearly 2 years of following development...


After reading some of the other posts more carefully, Mythic has made these classes 'mirror' one another in play style. Their thinking was that if you really liked one mechanic you would not be forced on to either Destruction or Order to play with that mechanic. So if you really liked the Bright Wizard exploding head style, but hated Order, you would have a solution in the Sorceresses career. I personally like decision. Does it limit variety? Maybe, but remember these are pretty darn loose mirrors, and thats still 12 unique mechanics, much more that say WoW, which has 9 or so(I'm not sure if i feel each of their classes play differently but i went with the largest number one could consider).

[Wyrd_One]

Originally Posted by Klitch

This is what i know and understand to be in the game

Enjoy
__________________________________________________ ____________

Dark Elf - Sorceress/Empire - Bright Wizard == Cast spells building up a greater and greater crit chance, but at the same time build up a greater chance to "blow up" and damage yourself

Dark Elf - Witch Elf/Empire - Witch Hunter == Various items/potions/etc... temporarily embue the character with extra energy/damage/speed/etc... And build Frenzy/Interrogation points to spend on damaging attacks

Dark Elf - Disciple of Khaine/Empire - Warrior Priest == Melee combat in order to gain Favor/Life essence

Dark Elf - Black Guard/Dwarves - Ironbreaker == Build up Rage/Grudge have lots of it to be more effective
__________________________________________________ ________________

Chaos - Chosen/Empire - Knight of the Blazing Sun == Auras

Chaos - Zealot/Dwarves - Runepriest == Place Marks/Glyphs on allies/foes to buff/debuff

Chaos - Magus/Dwarves - Engineer == Summonable timer based pets and utility range DPS

Chaos - Marauder/High Elf - Shadow Warrior == Stances
__________________________________________________ ___________________

Greenskins - Black Orc/High Elf - SwordMaster == Flexible combo/chain style attacks (think several ways to build up and several ways to finish, all interchangeable)

Greenskins - Choppa/Dwarves - Hammer == Deal damage to gain momentum/berserk to deal more damage and open new attacks and chains

Greenskins - Shaman/High Elf - Archmage == Balance damage and healing spells to maximize efficiency

Greenskins - Squig Herder/High Elf - *White Lion* == Long term Pet

Wow, this is great... color coded and everything. Thanks for the input. I agree with your speculations on things like the White Lion, but time will tell.

[Klitch]

Cheers.
Glad i could help

[Syp]

Thanks Klitch, was musing that a list like this would be very helpful. I'll be sure to post about it on my blog!

[Foofmonger]

I don't agree with Kitch's list. The devs clarified in the last chat that the mirrors are about playstyle, role, and mechanics, and you may not find cross-mirror mechanics that exactly match up.

Thus, a Shadow Warrior won't be a Marauders mirror, and a White Lion won't be a Squig Herders. Going out of archetype to try and make a mirror comparison does not seem to be in line with Mythics philosophy.

Here are the mirrors we are 100% sure of.

KoTBS/Chosen (Aura tanks)
Disciple/WP (Melee Healers)
Bright Wizard/Sorc (glass cannon nukers)
Witch Hunter/Witch Elf (mobile melee dps)
Shaman/Archmage (nuker support)
Zealot/RP (more traditional, AoE support)

As per the rest, here goes.

First lets look at tanks. We have the IB, Black Orc, Swordmaster, and Black Guard left. From what we know, the IB and the Black Guard may have a similar mechanic in Grudge/Hatred, yet the Black Guard has also been labeled as the anti-magic tank by Mythic (and so has the Swordmaster). The Swordmaster and the BG also are highly proficient with two handed weapons. On t he flipside, the Black Orc and the Swordmaster have a similar system of building up points, but the Black Orc seems to be more of a mitigation based tank, where the SM seems to be based on avoidance.

My guess for these would be to ignore mechanics, and go with playstyles. Thus matching up the IB/Black Orc as durable mitigation based tanks, and the SM/BG for anti-magic based tanks.

Now, lets move onto Melee DPS. We have the Marauder, Choppa, Hammerer, and WL (maybe), left. This is a hard one, because none of the mechanics we know of match up. Choppas zerking has recently been changed into a fairly unique mechanic, and as far as know momentum hasn't been functioning for Hammerers for a long time (or it was never implemented or something). Marauders have stances, but we don't know what the White Lion has.

There are two logical pairings to be made here. I think the more obvious one is more likely (Choppa/Hammerer, WL/Marauder). But this is entirely based on a lot of speculation, because we don't have a lot of info (or any) for some of these classes.

If I were to make this mirror, it would be.

Choppa/Hammerer (up-front melee DPS)
White Lion/Marauder (versitile melee DPS).

The other possibility is to put the Hammerer with the Marauder (for we know they both share knockdowns, and seem to be more durable then other melee DPS). And the White Lion with the Choppa (for someone who wants to go all out damage). This seems a little less likely to me.

Now, ranged DPS.

We have the Magus, Squig Herder, Shadow Warrior, and Engineer left. Due to the very similar descriptions we have been given by Mythic, this is the hardest pairing out of all of them to make.

We know the Shadow Warrior, is more melee/close range oriented then other ranged DPSers, and also has various stances, one for mobility. So it seems that whatever will pair up with the SW will be based on mobility, and probably have decent melee ability. The Magus or the Squig Herder could fill this mirror, depending on the mobility and melee abilities of these classes. However, we lack info to make a concrete conclusion.
The Engineer on the other hand, seems to be about versitility but not mobility. He has turrets/grenades/traps etc.. and various other effects. Once again, this could be paired up with either the Squig Herder, or the Magus, depending on the specifics of these classes.

The main point of contention here is that lack of info we have for these two destruction classes (Magus/SH), from what we know right now, they are fairly similar. They both are fairly versitile (the Squig has tons of pets for different occasions, and plenty of utility abilities) (the Magus has various secondary effects on spells), they both seem to have some melee capability (the SH has his squigs, as well as probably, some melee based moves, the Magus has been rumored to be able to attack with his disc).

So it could either be.

Magus/Shadow Warrior (mobility and melee rdps)
Squig Herder/Engineer (versitile ranged dps)

or

Shadow Warrior/Squig Herder (mobility and melee rpds)
Magus/Engineer (veristile ranged dps).

[Chasington]

Thanks Klitch, i was going to do something like that if it wasn't done but yours is way more neat and color-coded than mine could ever be

[Emeraldw99]

Foof's points about the remaining classes are very valid and I can't really disagree what what he has said. It is clear that certain pairings depend very much on what your comparing. Play style or role?

One thing I would like to mention is that the absence or presence of a pet does not mean it mirrors another thing with a pet. The pet may be simply a similar stance system to Marauder only it uses the pet, instead of an attached arm.

I really want to hear more about the Magus.

[Chasington]

Well I personally mirror mechanics only, and that is what I believe Mythic is trying to do, let everyone play what type of mechanic they want regardless of faction. You may disagree with that and it's fine, but if you're comparing mechanics then the two pet classes mirror each other.

[Foofmonger]

Originally Posted by Chasington

Well I personally mirror mechanics only, and that is what I believe Mythic is trying to do, let everyone play what type of mechanic they want regardless of faction. You may disagree with that and it's fine, but if you're comparing mechanics then the two pet classes mirror each other.

Then you would be wrong. Mythic has just stated last night that the mirrors are based on mechanics, playstyle, and role.

Its in the other thread on this topic (compare order vs chaos), and can be read in the stractics dev chat.

Like I have been saying all along, basing it on mechanics only is not accurate.

[Klitch]

Originally Posted by Foofmonger

I don't agree with Kitch's list. The devs clarified in the last chat that the mirrors are about playstyle, role, and mechanics, and you may not find cross-mirror mechanics that exactly match up.

Thus, a Shadow Warrior won't be a Marauders mirror, and a White Lion won't be a Squig Herders. Going out of archetype to try and make a mirror comparison does not seem to be in line with Mythics philosophy.

Here are the mirrors we are 100% sure of.

KoTBS/Chosen (Aura tanks)
Disciple/WP (Melee Healers)
Bright Wizard/Sorc (glass cannon nukers)
Witch Hunter/Witch Elf (mobile melee dps)
Shaman/Archmage (nuker support)
Zealot/RP (more traditional, AoE support)

As per the rest, here goes.

First lets look at tanks. We have the IB, Black Orc, Swordmaster, and Black Guard left. From what we know, the IB and the Black Guard may have a similar mechanic in Grudge/Hatred, yet the Black Guard has also been labeled as the anti-magic tank by Mythic (and so has the Swordmaster). The Swordmaster and the BG also are highly proficient with two handed weapons. On t he flipside, the Black Orc and the Swordmaster have a similar system of building up points, but the Black Orc seems to be more of a mitigation based tank, where the SM seems to be based on avoidance.

My guess for these would be to ignore mechanics, and go with playstyles. Thus matching up the IB/Black Orc as durable mitigation based tanks, and the SM/BG for anti-magic based tanks.

Now, lets move onto Melee DPS. We have the Marauder, Choppa, Hammerer, and WL (maybe), left. This is a hard one, because none of the mechanics we know of match up. Choppas zerking has recently been changed into a fairly unique mechanic, and as far as know momentum hasn't been functioning for Hammerers for a long time (or it was never implemented or something). Marauders have stances, but we don't know what the White Lion has.

There are two logical pairings to be made here. I think the more obvious one is more likely (Choppa/Hammerer, WL/Marauder). But this is entirely based on a lot of speculation, because we don't have a lot of info (or any) for some of these classes.

If I were to make this mirror, it would be.

Choppa/Hammerer (up-front melee DPS)
White Lion/Marauder (versitile melee DPS).

The other possibility is to put the Hammerer with the Marauder (for we know they both share knockdowns, and seem to be more durable then other melee DPS). And the White Lion with the Choppa (for someone who wants to go all out damage). This seems a little less likely to me.

Now, ranged DPS.

We have the Magus, Squig Herder, Shadow Warrior, and Engineer left. Due to the very similar descriptions we have been given by Mythic, this is the hardest pairing out of all of them to make.

We know the Shadow Warrior, is more melee/close range oriented then other ranged DPSers, and also has various stances, one for mobility. So it seems that whatever will pair up with the SW will be based on mobility, and probably have decent melee ability. The Magus or the Squig Herder could fill this mirror, depending on the mobility and melee abilities of these classes. However, we lack info to make a concrete conclusion.
The Engineer on the other hand, seems to be about versitility but not mobility. He has turrets/grenades/traps etc.. and various other effects. Once again, this could be paired up with either the Squig Herder, or the Magus, depending on the specifics of these classes.

The main point of contention here is that lack of info we have for these two destruction classes (Magus/SH), from what we know right now, they are fairly similar. They both are fairly versitile (the Squig has tons of pets for different occasions, and plenty of utility abilities) (the Magus has various secondary effects on spells), they both seem to have some melee capability (the SH has his squigs, as well as probably, some melee based moves, the Magus has been rumored to be able to attack with his disc).

So it could either be.

Magus/Shadow Warrior (mobility and melee rdps)
Squig Herder/Engineer (versitile ranged dps)

or

Shadow Warrior/Squig Herder (mobility and melee rpds)
Magus/Engineer (veristile ranged dps).

Let me start by saying that i agree with your analysis of the careers and their roles on the battlefield. But i disagree that the one you posted are the 100% mirrors. I am very aware that the list i posted did not mirror careers roles or even playstyles, it seemed to me that the OP wanted a list of mechanics that were being mirrored, and so i gave one. If you wanted a list of the roles mirrored, well, Mythic gave us a Podcast for that one.
I can post a list of the roles mirrored if you like

It seems obvious to me that some careers may mirror their mechanics, playstyles, and roles with 3 separate careers. So while the White Lion may mirror the squig herder in mechanic, he is more akin to the Shadow Warrior in playstyle, and then still mirror the Choppa in role. Now why would Mythic do something like that? One to confuse people and make it difficult to make accurate mirror lists, second to create diversity in their game, and third to not have 100% mirrors anywhere. Each career should be unique, and play differently from one another.

[Foofmonger]

Originally Posted by Klitch

Let me start by saying that i agree with your analysis of the careers and their roles on the battlefield. But i disagree that the one you posted are the 100% mirrors. I am very aware that the list i posted did not mirror careers roles or even playstyles, it seemed to me that the OP wanted a list of mechanics that were being mirrored, and so i gave one. If you wanted a list of the roles mirrored, well, Mythic gave us a Podcast for that one.
I can post a list of the roles mirrored if you like

Understood, but my basic point is that coming to any conclusion about the actually mirrors of anything is based on highly incomplete information, and thus must make vague assumptions based on the lack of evidence.

(For example, you say the Choppa/Hammerer have similar mechanics, even though they currently do not, because their mechanics have undergone changes, and seem to still be iffy in their current implementation).
(Example 2, What happens if the White Lion has a stance system like the Marauders? What if the pet functions more like a marauders arm (with 3 different stances) then the Squig Herders various pets... is that mechanical mirror still accurate between the SH/WL simply because they both have pets that work in vastly different ways?)

Its hard to mirror up mechanics when some of the mechanics for these classes, have yet to be announced or even finalized.

So I see no reason for definitive mirror lists, regardless of what is being mirrored, yet. While they may be educated guesses, and may turn out to be true, its like filling out a bracket for March Madness, and then asserting that your choices are correct before the games are played.

[Klitch]

Originally Posted by Foofmonger

Understood, but my basic point is that coming to any conclusion about the actually mirrors of anything is based on highly incomplete information, and thus must make vague assumptions based on the lack of evidence.

(For example, you say the Choppa/Hammerer have similar mechanics, even though they currently do not, because their mechanics have undergone changes, and seem to still be iffy in their current implementation).
(Example 2, What happens if the White Lion has a stance system like the Marauders? What if the pet functions more like a marauders arm (with 3 different stances) then the Squig Herders various pets... is that mechanical mirror still accurate between the SH/WL simply because they both have pets that work in vastly different ways?)

Its hard to mirror up mechanics when some of the mechanics for these classes, have yet to be announced or even finalized.

So I see no reason for definitive mirror lists, regardless of what is being mirrored, yet. While they may be educated guesses, and may turn out to be true, its like filling out a bracket for March Madness, and then asserting that your choices are correct before the games are played.

Sorry if i type slow, i have a habit of posting then editing in more stuff, please read my extended post.

Right then, to address what you have said. I agree that until the game actually comes out of NDA and probably not even until the release, any list will be purely speculative, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't at least try to make one. I constructed a list of mechanics that i believe to be mirrored. You are absolutely right that my list may turn out to be false. But i also believe that is the most accurate one that we can make with the current information given. One again, my list was only meant to show the mirrors in the mechanic aspect of the careers.

*edit
For your first example, i have seen no information saying that the mechanics for the Choppa and Hammerer have changed, please, please, please! link me where it says they are under going change.

On your second example about the White Lion pet stances, i would hope that the pet does, and in fact if it did it would only more closely pair up with the squig herder, since the herder will have several different squigs that play differently from one another

[aegir]

I just wanna butt in and get my 'right' here for a second. Mythic at one point stated that hey mirrored the classes because they wanted the same playstyle across the factions, but then they mentioned that otherwhise balancing would be horrid (i saw it in a vid somewhere, was a short mention) as in destruction having the superb glass cannon, only one ranged pet class, yateeyatee yateeya.
And I agree with foof ofcourse, it's hard to balance classes we don't know much about with classes that aren't even announced yet. So my conclusion is that we will have to wait and see the details to be for certain. There is a big chance mythic will be changing mechanics and playstyle to match the mirroring.

Greets.

[Klitch]

Originally Posted by aegir

There is a big chance mythic will be changing mechanics and playstyle to match the mirroring.

I pray that they do not change the careers to have 100% mirrors, it would seem to kill some of the fun and diversity for me. I like the idea of different mechanics and playstyle mirrors going on within a career

[Tharg]

I was always under the impression that the Magus was sort of a "casts spell 1 then casts spell 2 and that combo gives an added effect 3" So depending on what they cast one after the other they would get different secondary effects.

Not entirely sure where I read that... anyone else able to clarify that?.

Also I think they've said that no class is an exact mirror of another. I mean KotBS might be aura twisting but since its more "Your Party effecting" orientated rather than the Chosens "The other guys party effecting" orientated, while both share similar mechanics the end play styles will be quite different, so the mirror while on paper looks like 100% in fact isn't at all.

like Klitch i also hope theirs a few class that ain't like anything on the other side since that at least gives both sides some unique flavor (like WoW had to begin with before they gave Alliance shamans and Horde paladins... which was stupid in my mind)

Edit:- Given Mythics mirrored class in DAoC, such as the minstrel, bard and skald, all 3 where similar and where obvious mirrors but at the same time very different in terms of how you used them (good example is just how combat effective the Skald was compared to the Minstrel, and the bards far greater mezz capability compared to the other two), I hope that is how the "mirrors" act.