Punkbuster Inclusion, Removal of 4 Classes and 4 Capital Cities from WAR's Release

[Browncoat-WHA]

Greetings everyone,

Obviously out of the three announcements on MMORPG.com, announcement 2, which stated that Punkbuster anti-cheat software would be built, and that the Choppa (melee DPS, Greenskin), the Hammerer (melee DPS, Dwarf), Blackguard (tank, Dark Elf), and Knight of the Blazing Sun (tank, Empire) are being cut for release, as well as the reduction of capital cities to Altdorf and the Inevitable City only, has generated the most discussion.

Thus, we are creating one thread, temporarily stickied, for discussion, concerns, and feedback. We want you guys to be able to sound off, but please, keep it constructive and free of nonsense.

Original Announcement:
http://mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/239/feature/2041

Responses from Mythic:

Originally Posted by James_EAMythic

Hey guys,

It's important to remember a few key facts:

A) The game is still in development, it's important that we make the right decisions to have a successful launch.
B) We want to make a great game, not a good game. I think we can all agree that playing a career that wasn't up to par with our standards doesn't accomplish that.
C) Capital cities require you to capture 2 of the 3 campaigns. We'll have a much more informative explanation of how city capture works but it's now even more challenging and requires the cooperation of the entire realm to march to the gates of your enemies city and conquer their king, which in the end was always our goal.

WAR, while now different, is more exciting and engaging then ever before and the cities and careers provide an experience to look forward too

---

PunkBuster cannot automatically do anything, including boot a user from the server.

It is purely for monitoring purposes and alerting CSR's of any suspicious activity.

It still requires a member of our Customer Support team following our guidelines for support to take any action against an account.

Many of us have played FPS's to be booted from the server for no apparent reason. This will not be the case here as any instance will still require an investigation, it simply allows us to hone in on possible troublemakers faster than ever and keep your RvR and PvE experience as fair as possible

And a quote from Mark Jacobs.

Originally Posted by Mbj

Folks,

Okay, here's the third of the topics I will create today in which I'll explain in more detail, why we made the decisions we made. It's going to be a rather busy day so please don't expect me to respond to every question asked in response or to get into long debates. Obviously, I won't respond to any questions that are off-topic as that's why I'm creating these separate topics.

Well, this is the topic that I have been dreading the most because the message I have to deliver here it the only one that I feel badly about. I'm not going to suger-coat, spin, twist and/or manipulate bad news because I never do that and I'm not going to start now. So, off we go:

1) Losing some of the 4 careers does not feel great. I wish I could sit here and tell you that we were close to getting them right, that everything was going well with those careers but it wasn't. The feedback we were getting from our beta testers on the Hammerer was not good and while the feedback on the Choppa was better, it wasn't great. These weren't classes that were introduced at the last minute and the Dwarf-Greenskin pairing had been through multiple iterations. What we saw after all our analysis, and that includes player feedback on the boards, player surveys and our metrics tools was that these classes weren't cutting it. When it came to the Blackguard, well, we weren't excited about how they were coming along either.

2) When we looked at these careers, we had four choices:

a) Spend whatever time it took to get them in and get them great
b) Spend a reasonable amount of time and go with the best we could come up with
c) Put them in as is and try to fix them post launch
d) Pull them for now

Option (a) was not feasible. This game is not ChoppaHammer or WarHammerer, it is WAR. It is based on a tremendous amount of great Games Workshop IP and these careers are obviously not the only ones in WAR. Our game revolves around RvR, not 4 specific classes, so taking an indefinite amount of time to keep working on specific careers until we get them right was not the right call to make. Option (b) we looked at but nobody could guarantee that these 4 specific careers would have both been great and that it could have been accomplished in a set amount of time. Option (c) is not something we were going to do. Launching knowing that you haven't gotten it right yet and hoping to fix it post launch is not something we are going to do again. When we launched DAoC back in 2001, we knew (and we've said this before) that we wished we had a few more months to get a lot more done in the game. We hoped we would be able to fix things post launch (and for the most part we did) but we were out of money and had no other option. With WAR and as part of EA, we weren't going to go down that path again. WAR is all about RvR and the consequences of having either truly unbalanced careers at launch and/or unappealing ones are worse than in a PvE-centric game. I'd rather cut 4 careers now and then put them in (or other careers) post-launch. We also weren't going to wait till the last minute before launch, pull them and say WHOOPS to the players. That left option (d). We're making the decision now, well-before launch, so we still have plenty of time to make adjustments in the game based on what happens during this current stage of beta, the Guild Beta.

3) We are currently still in beta and beta is all about putting things into development, seeing what happens and making adjustments accordingly. We did just that and the consensus from the players and the development team was that pulling the careers was the way to go. This is precisely the type of stuff that happens during a beta test. The history of MMOs is littered with developers who refused to listen to the players, to the data that was gathered during beta and we refuse to go down that path with WAR. Making a great game is not only about spending money on development it's also about making the right calls during that time. This is one of those calls.

4) The loss of the careers is upsetting but the content is unchanged (other than the career specific stuff naturally). Every race still has its own lands, quests, starting areas, etc. We believe that with the careers with have in there and our Mastery lines that no race will be at a disadvantage. If, during the next few weeks of beta we're wrong, we'll make the decisions we need to do to ensure that we launch the world's next great MMORPG.

5) As to the future of these careers, I would love to say that they will be put into the game at some point but I can't. We will continue to look at them and if we feel we can make them great, then we will put them into the game. If we can't, then we will put in other classes to take their place.

If I believed that some extra time would have allowed us to both get in the removed classes and the other cities, I would have made the call to delay the game and I believe EA would have supported it. However, neither I nor the team believed that some extra time would have changed the situation. I can just imagine how much the community would have howled if we had said "We need to delay the game again for an indefinite amount of time until we can get 4 out of the 24 available classes in the game working well."

I do wish that the news about the classes was better but it is what it is and our goal, as always, is to make a great MMORPG. It was never about whether we had 24 classes or 20 classes, 2 cities or 6 cities, it was about making a great game, first and foremost. By making these decisions we are taking a painful but necessary step to make that happen.

Mark

Also another quote from Mark.

Folks,

Okay, here's the second of the topics I will create today in which I'll explain in more detail, why we made the decisions we made. It's going to be a rather busy day so please don't expect me to respond to every question asked in response or to get into long debates. Obviously, I won't respond to any questions that are off-topic as that's why I'm creating these separate topics.

So, why did we make the decision to have 2 capital cities versus 6 capital cities and what impact will it have on the game?

1) The capital cities are the jewel in our RvR crown. If we mess up with them, WAR will not be anywhere near as successful as it could have been. These cities are unlike any other cities in any MMO that I have seen or played. The amount of true content that revolves in and around them (and not just sticking a quest-giver NPC in a city) is unlike any other game. Both RvR and PvE happens there in a way that also has never been done in any other MMO's cities. Each city has 12 PQs and almost 100 quests (RvR and PvE) that either lead to the city, take place in the city or lead out of the city as well as 3 dungeons.

2) Because we are focusing on just 2 cities, the team has been able to pour more time into each city and really make them great. They truly are living cities and what you will see and experience in them would not have been possible to do if we had to get 6 cities ready for launch even if we had a lot more time.

3) Each CC takes a tremendous amount of time to design, iterate and release. No matter how much time we spend on the cities during development and beta, once the game is released everything changes. The history of MMOs has shown all of us that no matter how smart the developer or experienced the team, mistakes are made. Given the complexity of our cities, we can expect the same thing to happen to us.

4) Keeping (1) and (2) and (3) in mind, if we had made the decision to keep in all 6 cities, the chances of things going horribly wrong at launch and post-launch would have increased tremendously no matter how long we worked on them. The last thing that we would want to happen is to launch a great game but when players actually got to the city siege part, things were not working. We will not go down that path. By focusing on 2 cities, we lessen the chance of that happening considerably.

5) One of our most troubling concerns was what would happen post-launch in terms of each side's ability to take a city. Having in all 6 cities would mean that the focus of each side could have gotten distracted, the player base more spread out. If this happened, city sieges may have taken a lot longer for each side to accomplish and that would not have been pleasing to anybody. I'm reminded of the line from Jurassic Park where Jeff Goldman says "Now eventually you might have dinosaurs on your, on your dinosaur tour, right?" If players said to us "Now eventually you'll have capital city siege in your RvR game" to us, that would be very bad.

6) We expect over the months post-launch we will learn a lot about how our cities actually function in a truly LIVE environment. We will apply these lessons to the new cities and look at possibly rotating cities in and out of RvR to not only spice up the RvR experience but to allow us to tweak and improve the older cities. This will be both in the short- and long-run to be a major win for the players.

In the end, I'm not sorry at all that we are delaying the release of the other cities. Even if we had an unlimited budget and unlimited time and believed that we could do 6 awesome cities at launch, we know that starting with two capital cities is the best way to ensure a great experience for the players no matter whether their focus is on PvE, RvR or a combination of both.

Mark

And a final note from Mark:

Originally Posted by Mbj

Folks,

A few things and then I'm probably signing off these threads as I've said here and elsewhere everything that I can say regarding these changes. Over the next few weeks we'll be talking a lot more, especially after the NDA lift.

1) For those that are saying that they should cancel their pre-order, that they feel betrayed after ordering it, well, if that's how you feel, you should do exactly that. That's why we made these announcements now and didn't hold them back just before release (when it would be too late to cancel) or not even make them at all. So, I can understand people being upset but saying that we weren't acting with integrity is just wrong.

2) Regarding this content going in as paid expansion packs, not likely. We want to give out plenty of free/subscription content, just like in DAoC, if you're a subscriber, you get the content as part of your monthly fee as these things are part of the plan. Now, just so we're clear again, I'm not sure that these 4 careers will go back into the game now or ever. They'll only go in if they are great. We want to get the next city pairing in as soon as possible but only after we are sure that we've had enough time to fix what will inevitably go wrong with the the first pairing and make sure that it goes into the second pairing. We do not, repeat do not, have any plans to make this content available as a separate expansion pack.

3) Regarding other MMORPGs and cut content, there has never been a single large-scale MMORPG that hasn't cut out ideas/content that might have looked good either on paper or even during development. That's just how it goes when you are working on a game that can take anywhere from 3-6 years to develop that has as many systems/features/content as these games. Anyone who says otherwise hasn't been paying enough attention to a MMO development or is being less than truthful. Things change all the time during development and sometimes things that are cut are cut for the best reasons.

4) Regarding the concept that everything was in the game and working great and that we only delayed the game for polish, sorry but that is not true. When we announced the delay for Fall I said:

http://warherald.warhammeronline.com...le.war?id=111:

"During the most recent phase of beta testing, two things have become clear. One was that our key innovations - Public Quests, Tome of Knowledge and Realm vs. Realm combat - were all coming along very well, as was the first stage of our innovative crafting system. The second, that the game would benefit from additional iteration time as well as adding a layer of polish or two. Fortunately, as part of Electronic Arts, we are able to do just that."

Iteration time + additional polish time. Here on WHA I also talked about iteration time and polish time as two separate things. I'm sorry, like I said, I can understand people being upset but when they say I said that everything was great and all we needed was polish time, that's simply untrue.

Mark

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[Duerghaul]

Postpone release so you can make the game COMPLETE with all capitols and classes.

[Vale]

My thoughts on it all:
Punkbuster - Don't care too much tbh. Yeah I've had problems with it on FPS games, but from what James said it'll work differently, so as long as it does its job and does not affect people then great.

Capital Cities - Real shame, but not the end of the world. The game that shall not be mentioned had three player cities, but only one was ever a proper hub (on both sides) for a long time: Ironforge and Orgimmar. It was only before TBC and after that they made them all equal.

Classes - The worst news of all, not for me personally, but for those looking forward to the classes. This will hurt more than anything, because of the connection people have developed for the classes over time. It also brings up the question of RvR balance for those areas.

Originally Posted by logicalmayhem

Can we get some rough time frame of how long you think after release this stuff will be in game?

That's the only thing going through my mind. I'm hoping its before the majority of people start hitting level 40.

[Festo]

i think the decision is better than the alternative

releasing a game with cut content is better than releasing it with content that is bugged or not fun

and in the long term this will be the better choice

[Skaejek]

Quality > Quantity. Please remember this before ringing the doom bell.

Careers being cut, whilst bad for the players who had their sights set on them, will not unbalance the game. The berserker careers are both cut, the only difference being the tanks; not a massive issue.

The cities, well, they will be all the richer for this. Not ideal, as none of these measures are, but it is a sacrifice in the short-term that will pay dividends in the long-term.

[Swanie]

Four things that anger me:

WAR, while now different, is more exciting and engaging then ever before and the cities and careers provide an experience to look forward too

This really frustrates me because after a blow like this, the above is just unnecessary. The fact is it won't be as fun, exciting or engaging as the previous WAR. There is no possible way it could be. In time when you release the cities and classes that are missing it will but now no it won't be.

#2 The "Big" Announcements.
Does anyone else think this is childish in a way? Just come out and tell us if it is getting pushed back or stuff will be missing, don't lead us on. Now I know big announcement doesn't automatically mean something good, but in Mythic's case every announcement has be bad.

Now #3 isn't directed towards mythic more to everyone else commenting on people who are saying they are going back to WoW or etc. IMO this is a legitimate reason to go back to previous games. You cannot deny this is a pretty big blow. Now you yourselves might still have faith but to casual people who just want a new mmo this is a big factor. They could go to a game they know is already complete or conitnue to wait for WAR to be completed. Look at VG. Its fun now but after its incomplete release no one wants anything to do with it.

Finally #4: Think about the role players. Everyone had back stories and etc for their character and no they will either not be able to play as that character or won't be able to defend their city.

[Utakata]

Two battlefront captures required to siege a city?

Please respond in that thread about that topic.

[Mutters]

I'm not sure if you all realize the positives of this. When these 4 classes get put back in the game (or whatever replaces them) They will already have the live server data and be able to fill niches that are desperately needed in gameplay. Not only will you be getting a balanced class, you'll be getting a class that will be a perfect fit for a specific realm role.

I think that's a wonderful thing, even if you have to wait a little bit for it.

"Everything that's worth something in life is worth waiting for."

Mutters

[Kilgore]

Don't know how I should feel about this. Now that the initial shock has worn off, all the hype I had for the game previously has disappeared. I don't even know if I want to play anymore.

Mythic would be better off delaying the game to Winter 08/09 rather than this.

[Mathis]

*EDITED for content*

[Kaeldor]

I also think that sucks. I'll never feel as attahed to Altdorf as I would to Lothern, and why should I fight Dark Elfs in the IC? This makes no sense at all. I'm also sorry for the Black Guard. No idea how they want to make a the DE/HE thing work without DE having a tank. Sounds really stupid.

Still, I havne't played the game, so I'll wait for that, but it made me much less looking foward to the game.

At least they were nice enough to tell us in advance.

[pzykozis]

My concern is how the removal of the tank archetype from differing races will impact race vs race balance... dark elf vs high elf and empire vs chaos. Both delf and empire have lost their tank classes which in my mind leaves a pretty huge gap in the balance, unless you expect other races tanks to fill the void, but that seems like an unfair demand.

[Stigus]

Now that I think about it, the class cuts would really hit the single race guilds bad now due to a total lack of archetype balance for them

[Grag Bashfullson]

Originally Posted by Duerghaul

Postpone release so you can make the game COMPLETE with all capitols and classes.

If they postpone, there's a huge temptation to keep adding more features and more features until it's even more complete, i.e. featureitis.

This decision focuses them on the current release date and makes sure the stuff they've already got is complete.

Still sucks, though. I am glad they changed it so two of the three tier-4s are needed to get the city, otherwise two whole battlefronts would be worthless.

[Atralum]

While this may be a legitimate reason for some to go back to their old MMO's, I truly think they are being overdramatic.

I was deadset on making a KotBS aswell as my SW, and I am glad that mythic told us beforehand that the classes were sub-par, and would feel like a watered-down version of more unique classes.

The capital cities, also are not as huge a deal as some people make them out to be. Realm unity will now be more focused, and will help focus the battlefront.

Just my 2 cents